Holiday Special

Holiday Group Play & Age Gap Ethics w/ Razzum Frazzum

In this episode of the Subspace Exploration Project Todd gets personal with Razzum Frazzum. As we prepare to dive into the Josh Pieters documentary on Only Fans star Lily Phillips, and the Back From the Borderline podcast analysis of the event, Todd talks Group Play and ethical concerns around age gap dynamics. As a Dom with more life experience, how do we best respond to doubt and discomfort from a younger partner? This talk is the first in a series of conversations on consent, autonomy, and our urge to pathologize other people’s sexual expression.

Care And Feeding Of Werewolves podcast: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/care-feeding-of-werewolves-2158750

RazzumFrazzum on Fet: https://fetlife.com/users/8047623

Lily Phillips: https://allmylinks.com/lillian-phillips10

Josh Pieters on Lily Phillips - I Slept With 100 Men in One Day | Documentary: https://youtu.be/mFySAh0g-MI?si=fO5ZGzo5mzRTq4Mk

Back From the Borderline - sleeping with 100 men in a day: a psychological deep dive into sex, self-harm, and lily phillips [Note: Mollie Adler does not appear to have any qualifications as a mental health provider or academic.] https://shows.acast.com/back-from-the-borderline/episodes/lily-phillips-100-men-in-a-day-documentary-onlyfans-reaction

Holiday Group Play & Age Gap Ethics w/ Razzum Frazzum Episode Transcript

In the age gap relationships that I've seen, there is a very fine line between grooming and guiding.

That's why when someone gets the itch, and I've been teaching them, I back the hell off, like, super fast.

Because I don't want to be that person putting pressure on them to be and enjoy something that they dislike or are actively triggered by.

In this episode of The Subspace Exploration Project, Todd gets personal with Razzum Frazzum as we prepare to dive into the Josh Pieters documentary on Only Fans star Lily Phillips and the Back From the Borderline podcast analysis of the event, Todd talks group play and ethical concerns about age gap dynamics.

As a Dom with more life experience, how do we best respond to doubt and discomfort from a younger partner?

This talk is the first in a series of conversations on consent, autonomy, and our urge to pathologize other people's sexual expression.

The Subspace Exploration Project is a personal yet public dive into kink, BDSM, sex, neurodivergence, gender expression, and the queer community.

Let's get into it.

How are your holidays going?

They are going really well.

I had a week down with family and my brother and I actually connected.

He told his first trans jokes that were actually trans-informed.

So I was like, really?

I was like, oh my god.

Considering the general vibe of things, it's good to have some peace, an island of peace amidst all of that.

Yeah.

I consider you a friend that we don't get to hang out nearly as often as either of us would like.

I feel like you're also becoming friends with Clay as well.

Yeah.

I messaged you the other day and encountered something that had me asking myself questions about the ethics of being in, ethical concerns about being in an age gap dynamic with someone.

If I had considered them before, I wasn't really faced with them as like, you know, you really need to parse this out kind of thing.

And what it was, was that he went to go visit family for holidays, and he was listening to a podcast on, I guess, a Only Fans content creator named Lily Phillips, did some kind of gangbang kind of scene recently, where she had 100, you know, she fucked 100 guys in a day.

And there was a, I guess, a documentary about it.

And then there's this podcast where they did a psychological analysis of it.

And Clay just actually sent me the link, so I'm going to get a chance to listen to it.

You know, we've talked on the podcast before, and, you know, you and Clay and I and other friends have talked about group play being like a pretty big kink of ours.

And we've had some opportunities to do some of that play, though nothing even remotely as large scale as a hundred guys in a day.

You know, like you and I have been talking for over a year, I've been into group play since as long as I can remember, really.

Like, I've had very few opportunities to act on it.

My kink, my fetish comes from mutated into other things, but it more or less comes from like this goddess worship kind of thing.

And as I've gotten into and started to really understand shame and degradation, and all of the things in between shame and degradation and worship, this group play scenarios that I enjoy, I would like to enjoy, looks like a lot of different things.

But it ultimately comes from a place of connection and appreciating, just experiencing things that a lot of people don't get a chance to.

But I mean, it's a common kink for a reason.

It's hot.

Some people don't want to act on it because they feel a lot of shame.

And it seems humiliating to some.

And there are people that I think they can push back past that.

They can frame it differently.

They can be empowered by it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And whether or not it is a shameful experience, that's a personal thing, I think.

Though, I mean, you have some people say that anything that's along those lines is humiliating, and we should all feel ashamed about it, you know?

You know, I, it's really, you know, I don't have much of a poker face when it comes to that stuff.

Yeah.

When it comes to shame and play like that, if you have a lot of shame around it, I'm not sure you're ready.

You know, because it would be so easy for it to transcend into trauma.

And that is, that is not what you want because the after scene fallout, when everything calms down and you've, you stopped writing the wave and you've kind of bottomed out, you get the sub drop.

If you have shame, that's really going to eat at you.

And that's not to say that if and when you get a chance to experience these kinds of things that you won't encounter a myriad of emotional responses to things.

You know, I imagine that there's going to be plenty of people that have done this and continue to do this and enjoy it.

At times, they're like, oh, I don't feel super awesome about it.

But at other times, they're like, you know what?

This is really empowering, really.

At the end of the day, the people that were a part of this, you know, maybe I know them or I don't know them, but my partner or my best friends were there supporting me through this.

And I got to flip the table in reality or in my head.

I, you know, this was a an experience where I got to use these guys, objectify these men in ways that they would normally out in, you know, outside of this scenario, would objectify me in this way.

You know, I got to flip the tables and I got to shine in the way that I wanted to shine.

Right.

And I, you know, I was I was supported and uplifted in these specific ways.

And, you know, and people outside of kink may not understand that kind of stuff.

Right.

But those in the know, those that have experienced these things or dabbled in these things, can understand the value of it.

They might not dabble in group play, like on the scale of a hundred guys in one day or a hundred guys over the course of a week.

But they've navigated these kinds of feelings and learned how to create these containers in which they process those kinds of emotional experiences in new ways, in more positive ways, you know?

My first consensual gangbang was, I wound up sucking, I think, nine cocks in one go.

And I wasn't psychologically prepared for it to be affirming.

And I reacted to that really negatively because I didn't have the tools to accept it then.

Since then, group play has been a glorious thing.

Public play, all of that, I found it very affirming because my number one kink, at the very core of it, is to give pleasure.

That's it.

That's the very core of it.

I want to please somebody.

I want to make their fantasies come true.

I want to be what they need me to be.

I want them to make me into that.

That's my fetish.

That's my kink.

So, you know, in a gang bang, you have to be so flexible to give each person what they need, what they want, listen to the responses and all of that.

That is just awesome.

I love that.

That's my experience.

I've had a negative experience with it.

I've had very negative experiences with it.

But I've had incredibly positive, incredibly powerful experiences.

And I think that we focus too much on negative consequences.

When really it's a lot of going and prepared and making sure you have the coping mechanisms in place from when you reach that little fallout.

Sometimes it's not so little.

Sometimes it can even kick off mood swings.

You have to be aware of these things, especially before you do anything extreme like a hundred guys in one day.

That's certainly something you want to work your way up to, you know, start off with a couple, like make sure that you can do five or ten or whatever.

And, you know, make sure you're not working yourself up to a hundred in the course of a week.

Like you've experienced these things a couple times.

You've had time, you know, hopefully months to process these experiences before you're jumping into the deep end like that.

Yeah, because that is, I mean, yeah, I mean, if you're escalating things and taking no time to reflect and see how your body and your heart respond to these experiences, that I would say is reckless.

And maybe if the people around you aren't encouraging you to take the time to reflect, to see how you really feel, then they're not looking out for your best interest.

You know, they're taking advantage of you for sure.

Yeah, exactly.

You're being objectified in the bad way.

The reasons why I am into gangbangs, group play, goddess worship, or whatever, however you want to frame it, are pretty much the same things.

Like, there are numerous different things that go into how and why I find that kind of play ideal for pleasing people, partner, you know, people that I care about.

One, because it's a common fantasy that people don't get to experience.

Yeah, you can line up however many guys through whatever vetting process, and you can objectify.

As long as they're agreeing to be objectified in these ways, they can be used as tools to achieve whatever this goal is, whatever to create this scenario.

And to be the person who orchestrates these kinds of scenes for a partner, whether it's really degrading or it looks like worship or somewhere in between, it can be very, very powerful and very rewarding for everybody involved, you know?

And yeah, like I've tried to create scenes like this off and on for 15, 20 years.

You know, especially once Craig's List became a thing, you know, until it, you know, became a thing, the personal section.

Yeah.

And before it went away, which I think was, what, 2018 or something, you used to be able to line people up.

It was a nightmare trying to vet these guys, you know, find people that were reliable and worthy.

And there's still easily a dozen different reasons why they aren't worthy of being part of these kinds of scenes.

Recently, I've found a way, a process of vetting people that appears to work, get some initial play occurring and it brings people together, and it can be pretty fun.

But back to this podcast that Clay was listening to, and I'm going to send you the link too.

He listened to it, I guess it was a four-hour psychological analysis of the documentary around this scene that had occurred for this content creator.

Got Clay feeling a bit Ick, I guess, about recent scenes that we had done and feeling a bit disconnected from me.

And my response, my knee-jerk response was to be like, you know, I understand, you know, coming to the conclusion that maybe this kind of play is not for you, that you've decided that I don't want to do this thing anymore.

I tried it and it's not my thing.

Totally fair.

Especially more edge play type stuff.

Like if you get to a point where you're questioning whether or not it might or might not be for you, I would hit pause on doing it anymore.

Give yourself some time to reflect and have conversations with those that have been or might in the future be part of those scenes and parse that out.

Pick it apart, understand where you're at, and if you should move forward with that kind of play again.

But my knee jerk response was also like, why is he looking down on me?

What did I do wrong?

This was just in a matter of like a second.

This was what popped up in my head.

Like what did I do?

I thought we had spent a long time discussing this thing, these kinds of scenes and what it might be, what it might not be, and we were both equally into it.

It took like a year to make it happen.

Again, I haven't listened to the podcast.

I don't know exactly what's going on inside his head.

We haven't had time to.

And that's not exactly what this is about.

This is about once I had my initial response, then I sat with it and I'm like, well, okay, the issues could be that edge play is edge play, and you're finding edges a lot of the time.

You're exploring things, things that are new.

But also, there's a, with someone who's more experienced sexually and in kink, they have a better sense of what they, their body and their mind and heart can handle.

And I think one of the problems, in being in an age gap dynamic, but also wanting to treat someone as young as Clay, like he is an equal, is I forget sometimes that he does not have that experience.

A lot of these things that we're doing are for the first time.

So he doesn't know his body and how his heart is going to respond to these things all the time.

And it's it's kind of reckless of me to forget that.

You know, not that I can protect him from all any potential fallout, right?

But I need to keep in mind that a lot of these experiences are first time experiences of a variety that he has not dabbled in a lot of this stuff or anything similar to this stuff, right?

So that it makes me wonder, like, like from an ethical standpoint, you know, should I be slowing down?

Should I make sure he's having more time to reflect before dabbling in the next thing?

Should I avoid orchestrating firsts for him?

Should I maybe leave it up to him having experiences with others?

I would, in your shoes, try to put the power back in his hands, because he's got the itch, and that's pretty fundamental.

It can take a while to get over it, if you even do.

Sometimes it just sets it, and you get the itch, and that's it.

So I would explicitly say, hey, we're not going to explore this further unless you ask for it, and dictate your limits and what you need for after care, what you need for care like three days later.

You know, because it's almost like whiplash, the way the sub drop seems to work.

And even if you're not prone to it with one person, you might be more prone to it with each additional person.

That's my experience.

It's not universal.

But he doesn't tend to experience a lot of drop.

And even though we have communication in their times where we're reflecting on things and speaking on our connection and our dynamic and our responsibilities and how it impacts us emotionally and mentally.

I feel like maybe we need to set up a better routine of reflection on some of this heavier stuff.

There's a lot of edges that we find and ride, you know.

And I, more than anything, you know, I care for this guy.

And I have a responsibility to not do any lasting harm, you know.

It's one thing to carve up his skin with silly little things, you know, that I want to want his skin to save for a couple of weeks or whatever.

But that's the extent.

That's as long as I want any of that harm to last, you know.

You know, I just want it to be surface abrasions, you know.

I want to know that he's becoming stronger from these experiences and that he doesn't think ill of me.

And I guess that's why I flinched, is I felt like he was thinking ill of me, which made me think, okay, he's not communicating with me about something, or I'm not creating a atmosphere that is welcoming of certain conversations, and I have a responsibility to change that, you know.

You have a responsibility towards it, but, you know, so does he.

That's a two-way street.

I don't know Clay, so I'm hesitant to speak on what he feels, or what he thinks, or anything like that.

What I do know is that in the age gap relationships that I've seen, there is a very fine line between grooming and guiding.

That's why when someone gets the itch and I've been teaching them, I back the hell off like super fast.

Because I don't want to be that person putting pressure on them to be and enjoy something that they dislike or are actively triggered by.

There's an inherent power imbalance with age gap relationships where, because of the younger person's inexperience, and that has to be recognized pretty fundamentally.

That is the most common mistake that I've seen with age gap relationships.

Most of them have been healthy ones, but there are a few that I've seen that were just like get away from them.

That's predatory.

Well, I go out of my way.

I mean, how I made a podcast about it.

I want to be above board in every way I can.

He and I haven't had a chance to discuss these things.

He's got processing to do.

Absolutely, my instinct is to, I mean, not that we can't maybe play in certain ways, but it's going to be kind of limited for a bit.

I wouldn't really have it any other way.

I don't feel comfortable.

I want to make sure that he fully understands how these things are impacting him before we dip our toes back into anything that remotely that intimate.

I needed to kind of get a chance to talk out my concerns about like, what are my ethical responsibilities beyond hitting pause on some of these things?

For instance, I have a fetish.

He has interest in a kink that over-intersects with my fetish.

Is it irresponsible for me to pursue that?

Like, will my judgment in my guiding him in these activities be clouded by my fixation on a thing?

Or is that where we're supposed to meet, you know, is where those interests intersect, you know?

I think that's where you're supposed to be, supposed to meet.

And I think part of a submissive's or a slave's responsibility is to keep their boundaries and call a halt if things are, if there's too much pressure to do something that they don't want to do.

There's exploring a concept and then there's, you know, the constant rehashing of the, you know, I'm pressure into, you know, stuff like that.

It's, one is reassuring.

The other is really off-putting.

Yeah.

So with that, it's kind of, you have to have trust in the submissive and the submissive has to have trust in you, that you will keep your boundaries.

Even if you accidentally put a toe over the line and it happens, you push back, even the best get carried away.

No matter which side they, you know, they're on.

Sometimes you will violate your own boundaries.

Yeah.

And the trauma from that is real.

Sometimes it's not traumatic.

Sometimes it's just a, oh, I need to watch that.

Yeah.

But it's always a case where consent got violated in some way.

And that needs to be addressed.

That needs to be acknowledged.

That needs to be validated.

The emotions that come from it on both sides need to be validated.

And there's a healing process.

It's easy to try to take all the responsibility onto your own shoulders for a boundary being violated and feel guilt and all of that.

A certain amount is understandable, but self-flagellation on either side is just not the way of it.

I think this was a good talk, and I think this is just like the beginning of a talk.

I just wanted to take a moment to reflect on these things and get your input.

I think this is a bizarre and twisted little holiday special.

I think.

Merry Christmas.

I'm one of the hoes.

No, sorry.

Do you have personal stories and observations you would like to share about kink, BDSM, non-monogamy, and where neurodivergence, mental health, gender expression, community, and politics all intersect?

Maybe you have a request for a topic or a guest.

We welcome people in these communities to reach out to let us know how we're doing, to share their stories and interests, and help us to shape how we contribute to healthy, informative conversations on sex, kink, non-monogamy, and queer culture.

We would love for our fellow kinksters, E&M, and queer people to ask questions, make content requests, and share your stories.

You can remain anonymous or if you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, shoot us an email and let us know a little bit about you.

To get in touch with us, go to subspaceexploration.com/contact.

Please comment, like, share, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Acast, and RSS feed.

Goodbye.