Fetishes, Pride, & BDSM 101 Project

Kink Roundtable – Fetishes, Pride, & the BDSM 101 Project

In this episode Ronen, Clay, & Todd talk about fetishes, what Pride means to them, what they’ve learned in their talks with recent guests, and the upcoming BDSM 101 Project. The team discusses differentiating between a kinks & fetishes, learning how far we want to or should take things, as well as what queer community means and how to find a home in it.

Kink Roundtable – Fetishes, Pride, & the BDSM 101 Project Episode Transcript

This is The Subspace Exploration Project.

Join us for a deep dive into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and community building.

In each episode, we're deconstructing the gender binary, celebrating queer culture, and creating a safe space for sex education, all while learning from authors, educators, mental health professionals, and folks like you and me.

So this here is another one of the Subspace Exploration Project Kink Roundtable Talks with just the three of us.

I'm Todd.

I'm Clay.

I'm Ronen.

We wanted to talk about a couple different things today.

We're going to talk about the difference between a kink and a fetish.

We're going to discuss what pride means to us, because it is Pride Month.

Towards the end of it.

Yes, it's almost over.

And then we get to go back to being ashamed.

Fuck that, no.

And then we've got a kink, sex, personal and community wellness, educational project that we're involved in, that we want to discuss.

But you'll have to skip to the end for that, if you want those details now.

I've got it on a list, so I think we should go with the list.

Kinks versus fetishes.

I was reading about this, and I found several articles, and it was really interesting, that people use kink and fetish interchangeably so often.

It's just kind of entrenched in their vernacular, like kink, fetish, whatever, same thing.

But what I was reading is, a kink is something that you like that's out of the ordinary, and you really, really like it, and it doesn't even have to get you off sexually, necessarily, it just does it for you.

A fetish is something that you need in order to get off.

Like, you need it, you can't orgasm without it.

Or even get turned on enough without it.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that's an important distinction that a lot of people don't make.

And I mean, it's not just a matter of using the right words, it's a matter of understanding these distinctions, because you might not be aware of the fact that you require that to get there, you know?

I feel like kink has become a lot of what I do in my getting off.

And it's like, I'm not interested in getting off without these kinky activities.

And so my recent way of thinking is kind of, my way of thinking is shifting more towards a lot of the main kinky things that I need to do in order to get off or engage in the play that I want to are more so my fetishes than they are my kinks.

I have a fuck ton of kinks, but I don't need all of them every time I get off.

What I usually do need every time I get off is some sort of power exchange.

And the rest is like creativity from there, I guess.

But my main fetish is a power exchange, and I don't wanna have...

I don't wanna get off without it.

Maybe I could.

It wouldn't be great, I don't think.

And it's not just...

I haven't really got enough without it, that's the thing.

And it's not necessarily a matter of it's just boring without it.

It's like participating in these kinds of activities, it kind of rewires your brain, you know?

Or, well, I mean, still, it rewires your brain, either creates pathways that hadn't been established yet, or overwrites some of the more boring, less stimulating.

I mean, ultimately, that's what it's doing is it's overwriting less functional, less stimulating pathways in your brain.

Like I've realized that from a very, very young age, some aspect, some version of worship has always been the foundation of the way I'm attracted to and interact with partners of mine.

It can look like a lot of different things, but I want to say from like four or so, this, for me to really enjoy it, it's got to look something like that, like what I witnessed, and it just been printed on my brain, and I can't get it out.

And as I've had different kinds of experiences, it's evolved.

I remember somebody, a coworker of mine, at some point, I want to say like 15 years ago, made an offhanded remark about, you know, we were just talking about sex.

We worked this graveyard shift job, and lots of jabbering to keep ourselves entertained.

And eventually, the conversation gets around to sex, and they made this offhanded remark about really enjoying when their partners opened up and loose.

Whereas most people are like, they think...

The looser, the worser.

They think the gold standard is as tight as possible, like the person's never had any kind of sex before.

And not only did I realize that I completely agreed with him, but it allowed myself to continue to explore what that means to me, like by consciously addressing that.

Because I knew on some level that I did like it, prefer my partner warmed up and relaxed and open.

But then it kind of morphed, it combined with the worship, the group play, you know, and...

Combination of efforts to...

Yeah, and like it kind of got to a point for me to really get off.

I really have to feel that, like my partner opened up, and really enjoying it, you know.

Like, I mean, yeah, I don't think I can get off without it.

I wonder if, like, someone would hear that and be like, well, yeah, I also want my partner to enjoy it, and for it to not feel uncomfortable.

But it's not the same.

Like, I will get my hands in there, my hand and my caulk in there, and really, like, the more open, the better.

That's why I, like, I'm kind of obsessed with group play, because, you know, I've been in some group situations where, you know, two or three penis-habbers give attention to someone, and the more open the bottom is, the more I enjoy it.

And, like, as they get really opened up, I just, I can go for hours and just fucking love it.

Cave diving, man.

You don't know where it's going to take you.

You gotta keep going.

Spelunky.

Spelunky.

I think for me, it's the booties.

I love anything about the butt.

Yeah.

Anything.

And it became a fetish.

It may have started out as a kink, but it became a fetish for sure.

Because I can't, unless we're either talking about my ass or playing with my ass or something about my ass, it's going to be in there.

Butts, butts, butts, butts.

Are there any particular things that you really got to have?

I mean, you said power exchange.

Power exchange.

Lately, I'm pretty disappointed if I don't have...

If I'm not doing some sort of throat training or if I'm sucking the strap or a cock or whatever, I'm disappointed if I don't get to do that.

I never thought that I would get to that point in my life.

I was like, no, this is my gym time.

I get to lift all the weights that I want and max out.

And that's what it feels like.

What does maxing out look like?

I think you've talked a bit about it.

But until you puke?

I mean, I'll have to puke a few times, I think.

It just feels like my throat starts to just get too tense from the accident, like triggering all my food and liquids to come up and into my mouth and like, you know, swallowing.

It's not pleasant.

And like, I can only take it a few times before I'm like, okay, I'm done with this sensation.

It's taking me out of it.

And like, I keep, like, my throat is just, I'm suffering in a way that is not enjoyable anymore.

And it's more dealing with puke over sucking on the phallus.

Yeah.

Yes.

Enjoying the sensation in the...

And like, I can get past the puke.

It just, like, it tires out my throat and, like, my mind, really, like, it makes me start to get worried about when the next time I'm going to throw up it is.

And like, is it going to be worse?

And like, am I going to do damage?

What if my throat starts to tense up too much?

And like, like, I fuck up my throat more than I needed to because I was pushing it too far, literally.

I find it to be a sport.

Kind of like singing.

Relax the throat.

Yeah.

Breathwork.

Lengthening the larynx or whatever, something like that.

I should know as someone with a degree in linguistics that like, you know, the particularities of the nose-throat area and how to use it to your advantage when deep-throating or sucking on phalluses of any kind.

I'm recalling a specific time in my high school days.

I'm not sure if I want to tell this story, but it was like, I knew that I was a kinky person and everything, and this was like post-sexual assault, the first time I had a boyfriend.

And like, it's like my senior year of high school.

First time I had a boyfriend again after sexual assault.

Anyway, and it was like the night before, we ended up breaking up.

But we were in a room full of our friends, and we were all having like a sleepover, like we had all gotten drunk or whatever, and we were sleeping on the floor.

And I sucked his dick.

And he gripped his balls so hard.

And it was the first time that I would like, seen someone like grip themselves as hard as he did.

And it really like, not frightened me, but like it took me out of the moment.

But you know, I swallowed that cum, and we went to bed, and we broke up for other different reasons the next day.

But that just, that memory just came back to me.

It was just my first encounter with someone else's something more than just the sex that cis men wanted from me.

And as a kinky individual now, I'm like, oh, I can get by that, and I can ask questions, and it wouldn't make me uncomfortable.

But 18-year-old me was like, no one asks me what I want, but go ahead, do what you need to, don't ever talk to me about it.

Anyway, I wonder about his fetishes and kinks now.

I wonder how he is.

Don't want to talk to him, and if you see this, what are you doing?

You don't want to call him up and interview him now?

He's a Marine.

He doesn't want to talk to me.

I did teach him a lot about gender, though.

I made him watch the Katie Couric transgender trans revolution documentary or whatever.

We paused it every once in a while, and he asked me questions, and he was understanding it, and I was really proud of him.

He's a good old boy.

I don't know how he is now.

Yeah, I'm finding, as I'm developing an appreciation for inflicting pain, I don't know that it's becoming a fetish, exactly, but I'm finding that I do get very turned on by it, and sometimes I can't quite get turned on without it.

Like, with some kind of rough reddening of the skin, you know?

Yeah, I've honestly never had an interest in the romantic discovering about each other, fumbling around in the sheets type of sex.

I've always seen that as like, I just have to fucking get through that until it gets fucking good.

Yeah, it's annoying.

I don't like it.

It's not sexy.

I don't find it fun or cute or endearing.

I find it like weird and awkward and not that enjoyable.

And as I've grown older, it can be more fun now to find the humor and laughter in it.

It will just never...

I just...

It still just does not get me off.

It doesn't get me off.

And so that's why my sexuality and romantic relationships are kind of weird because I don't really overlap my romantic relationships with my sexual relationships because people often want romantic lovey-dovey sex, and I don't want to do that.

I imagine it can be difficult to figure out how those things fit together.

But I mean, I'm sure that in some ways they can and do, it's just not in the traditional ways.

No, no.

And I'm still working on how they fit together.

I'm sure they can.

I don't think I'm being contradictory.

I just haven't figured out how to balance it or allow them to coincide.

Because I'm getting really good on working on the sexual part, because I really miss that.

I didn't give a fuck about a romantic relationship, because I have lovely friends who I love so fucking deeply and give me all the support that I need, and family and chosen family and other community members.

And I've not been one to place all my eggs in one basket.

And I hate when people place all their eggs in my basket.

Yeah, that's made romantic relationships as far as romance, intimacy and sex and the sex that I want to have.

That's been difficult.

So yeah, that's why I've kind of been like, I can work on romantic relationships later.

Let me know my body and myself and what I want from people before I like try to make courtship work.

I'm not really interested in courting maidens right now.

But if you send me a messenger raven, I shall scribe back to you.

Make sure you include details on the dowry.

Yeah, dowry details.

How short is your dress?

Are you wearing garters?

Chastity harness.

Chastity, okay.

That's a bit of mon...

Well, I guess you could.

Yeah, yeah, that's a bit medieval.

For the record, I'm not interested in keeping anyone's chastity.

Maybe if it embarrasses them?

I don't know.

Never mind.

I don't want to talk about it.

I'm sure I could find a reason that I could be into something.

I could find a way to be into something.

Pride.

What pride?

Pride.

I have no pride.

There's corporate pride, which nobody enjoys, except for when actually some of their free stuff that they give out kind of sleaze.

I can't think of something, but I know that there's like, I think my sister has probably gotten like pride stuff from her corporate job and has been like, just kind of was cool though.

Like it's like a water bottle or something.

I don't know.

Or a sticker.

If you go to the pride events, you see all these corporate booths, and they got the free shit that has some half-assed rainbow on it or something, and you're like...

Love wins.

Most of it's garbage.

It's not even adequate.

Like there'll be a water bottle that you're like, I should just recycle this now.

It's not good.

It's going to leak or something, or just like the design is going to scrape off in like two weeks.

This year, I'm going to Seattle Pride.

I've been to a Portland Pride.

I've been to Eugene Pride.

Portland Pride is okay.

The Pride Parade is really fun.

What I like about Portland Pride, and I think I move away from the point.

What I like about Portland Pride is that the Dykes on Bikes Motorcycle Club are always like starting the parade, and they go by fast on their bikes with all their flags, and their varying lesbian or other queer partners, family members on the backs of their bikes.

That's really cool.

I love the gays in leathers.

That's my favorite part of Pride.

I love to see the outfits.

Not necessarily like the Rainbow Mermaid outfits, but I love to see people's sexiest.

Like, let me see what you're feeling.

Your most sexiest, gayest, sluttiest, awesome outfit is.

I love the leathers.

I love it when the pups go by in the parade.

I love to see them in their hoods.

And sometimes the furries are in the parades too.

But I love seeing the freak flags fly.

That's what I really, really love about Pride.

It's not just that like, yay gay, but like, yay all the freaks and weirdos and marginalized identities coming together.

It lets us know we're not alone.

Shouting and hooting, yeah.

It's a big deal.

Just being visible, taking up space.

I have to say, for Pride this year, I'm really lucky to have my dad, which I just met my bio dad recently.

But he's 79 years old, and he has made it a point to try and understand transgender people, and accepted me without any hesitation.

And I know a lot of kids don't get that, you know, necessarily, or they get thrown out for being queer or, you know, things like that.

Or like my family really didn't want much to do with me when I started transitioning, especially.

But it's great to have someone that...

It just shows you that people, you know, be old and set in their ways, maybe, but it doesn't mean they can't just take a little time to learn something.

Yeah, you know, I'm really proud to have that.

I remember my parents were...

My parents are pretty liberal, so like when my sister came out as gay, when I was like five or something, you know, she just got into college, and they, you know, she called and she was like, I have something difficult to tell you.

And my mom's like, are you pregnant?

And she said, no.

Okay, are you a Republican?

No, I'm gay.

And she's like, oh, yeah, we know.

So, you know, it was always, you know, gay was always okay, sex was fine, like all good.

My cousin came out as trans, and that, you know, paved even more.

There were still like, you know, my aunts and uncles and some other cousins and even my parents at times like didn't get it, but they knew enough to be like, I guess it's not my business to get it though.

But now they're trying to put effort in to get it so that it's like they can understand and love and appreciate and see me more.

Yeah, my parents live on a river, and they have their pride flags flying on their dock.

And they have lesbian neighbors by chance.

I was thinking about it, like what does pride mean to me?

And this is by no means like a woe is me kind of thing, but it's like a cis guy, cis, bi, pansexual person.

I'm of a generation where it's kind of like mixed ethnicity kind of thing, like you're in between worlds.

If you're bi, you're not quite legitimate as queer.

In my youth, I'd often waver between feeling like I was authentically queer and accepted in the queer community.

I guess it all really depended on the community that I was in or an ally of the community and not really part of it.

And it wasn't until when I got older, having queer children and going with them to pride events and whatnot and feeling like, oh yeah, this is definitely home.

These people are my people that I was really able to just push that out of my mind and just embrace it for myself.

But also as a parent and a caretaker type person, going to these events and having seen the hostile people, that's what my protector, my hackles are up when I go to some of the Pride events and I see the alt-right people there fucking with people.

God hates fags people.

Yeah, and I've definitely encountered a lot of those over the years.

It's a little anxiety-inducing, but I do love to see the people able to still be proud and themselves, despite those fuckers, showing up and trying to fuck with them.

Yeah, and that is what it's about, ultimately, anyway.

Like I said earlier, taking up space.

We're going to keep taking up space.

There's no other option for us.

Yeah.

So, just kind of carve out our own space if we have to.

Mm-hmm.

Out of whatever you give us.

That's something that I really connect with in talking with some of these guests that we've had on the show.

It's like, they're constantly encouraging people to just explore, discover the authentic you and be as loud and proud about that, you know, of what you find as possible.

Mm-hmm.

Because stifling that is, I mean, that's stress, that's misery.

It still exists.

You're just not allowing it to breeze.

You're detrimental to your health.

Yeah.

You have to have a space to let that out and be, and be proud and be okay with those parts of yourself.

Otherwise, they fester and shame grows and infects the rest of the way you view yourself in the world.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I think we've all met people.

We maybe have people in our lives that spend their lives, for one reason or another, stifling themselves.

It can be really damaging.

I've got friends that are really depressed, like even after coming out and starting to live their lives the way they've always felt, secretly felt that they needed to, there's still this deep sadness that they're working on undoing.

I mean, the longer you wait to acknowledge and accept yourself, you're looking at exponential time to repair.

You know?

What are your favorite guests?

We can't pick favorites.

We can't possibly pick favorites.

What are some of the most exciting, revealing, informative talks that we've had on the show so far?

Or just fun talks?

Talking with Wynne was really fun.

And it really caught my interest in the sharps play and things like that.

Yeah.

It calmed me down a bit about sharps play too, honestly.

It didn't stir me up further about it.

I was like, okay, yeah, it will probably kind of be fine.

I think, I mean, not that Ronen wasn't saying be careful, but I think there's so many people out there, and maybe it's a liability issue, but they're like, you really need to be as careful as you fucking can be when you're doing this.

And it gets people on edge, and they're like, I don't know what to do.

Shaking, trying to put the needle in, and that's not fucking helpful.

Like, you want the person holding the needle to be steady.

As a starter.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, people are absolutely like...

I also think that that conversation was revealing about how many people who are interested in kink aren't necessarily starting at the same beginnings as everyone else.

Nor are they turning up their intensities on the same things as everyone else.

And so some people, probably some people are gonna, like, their first interest in kinky activities is sharps.

Someone out there is like, I need to try sharps and this is my first intro into kink and everything.

And that person needs information and they can't, like, you should be able to start with whatever activity you want to start with at a low intensity level and crank it up as you see fit and not necessarily psych yourself out just because it is more of a next level activity.

Anything can be a next level activity just depending on the intensity that you're giving it.

And, you know, I guess the potential to draw blood is implied, yeah, it's a little bit more intense, I guess.

There's, you know, blood borne illnesses and diseases, you know, whatever.

Blood can also be difficult to get out of carpet and clothing, so you need to have a good set up and everything.

Yeah.

All that say that people are going to start where they want to start.

And you can have different intensities to those things, even if they seem like a deep end activity.

You can still go in the deep end with floaties on your arms, like you'll be okay.

Yeah, I think my faves are Win and Leaf, are two most recent talks.

I've always been interested in Rope.

I've never put my hands in it, you know, like, seriously.

But to watch their videos and see how intimate and how...

And I was like, ooh, I want that.

You want to borrow some rope?

I'll give you some rope.

I would love to, actually.

My girlfriend's really good at a few things, but is very knowledgeable about it, being a rope bunny.

I'll totally give you some rope to start practicing, because just having it in your hands awakens something in you.

It's kind of amazing.

Before dabbling, I couldn't tell you what knots were what.

I could tie my shoes at two years old, but aside from that, I didn't know the different kinds of knots, what their function was.

But as soon as I picked it up with the intention of tying myself up or someone else, it all started to make sense.

And there was like this sensuality to the feel of it and to the potential of it, you know.

I remember what I was going to say earlier.

Yes, it's about knowing the human body.

It never hurts to do your research on the human body itself, whether you're bottoming or topping.

If you just, if you just, when I used to, I went to college in Texas for massage therapy, and you have to learn anatomy.

And it could just be applied to kink in that, you know, just knowing the basics of the human body, you could avoid, you know, hurting someone or...

Perhaps even how to relieve tension on someone.

Yes, yeah.

And I think it could be a good thing for someone to just at least look at a little bit before they do some things.

Especially if they're going to jump into something like you're saying, it looks like next level or whatever, but if that's where they want to start, do your research.

If you want to make somebody's body feel a certain way, you might want to have an idea of where on the body that might be, you know?

The pressure points and the meridian lines all.

Yeah.

And like where the muscles are, where the bones are, because there have been a few times with my dog that we've scoped out, okay, where are the bones in this position that you're on to make sure that we're not hitting directly on bone when we don't want to.

You can hit on bone.

It hurts more.

I don't want it that much.

I really enjoyed the conversation we had with Leif because the feelings game, the exposure and closure, all the thoughtfulness, the intention behind exploration like that with the partner, it's the kind of depth that I really want in connecting with others through kink.

And one thing I realized is that to have an unexpected outcome in your play doesn't mean it's a failure.

You know, with my pet recently, there have been a couple different things we've done where things didn't turn out the way we had planned, and it was challenging, and we didn't necessarily know how to turn it around in all those instances.

And I knew instinctively that it wasn't a failure, but I hadn't yet figured out what the takeaway was and what to do next time.

I realized that as long as the trust is there and you improve on the communication, when you hit those rough patches, you can keep going and be like, hey, we found this, it might be uncomfortable or challenging in a way we didn't expect, but we can actually go, we can lean into that and make, sometimes make that a goal.

Make that, explore the anxiety instead of the soft, welcoming subspace.

Like, I want to make you afraid instead, and because we're going to get somewhere, get over that, over that hill, and you're going to be safe and comfortable and reassured, you know, after we push through this.

Yeah, and talking with Leif and understanding how they like to play, sometimes I realize that there's a lot more of the darker things, less pleasant emotional experiences, for lack of a better word, can be enjoyed, you know.

And it's kind of doing shadow work or, you know, like we were talking about the other day, facing yourself, being very, very honest with yourself first, and then it's easier to be honest on the outside if you've done it inside first.

Being honest about your feelings, for some people, it's really hard, and for me, I'm one of those people because feelings were dangerous in the environment I grew up in.

If you showed too much emotion, well, what's wrong with you?

And that wasn't a good thing to do.

So kink, for me, has been breaking through some of that and facing my own self and facing my own emotions and being like, hey, you know what?

We can put it in a container, and it's going to be okay.

And march through it, or fumble through it, or fall, or whatever.

I think talking about the different levels of play someone might want to engage in at whatever knowledge level they're at and finding it daunting is a good segue into the new project that we're working on.

Yes, actually, we just started to talk about this, so I didn't want to segue over to that.

But yeah, we're working, we're collaborating with a number of educators, experienced kinksters that are, as much as they play and they have other kink-related occupations, education is kind of the foundation of what they do now.

And we've talked and we believe that there's so much incomplete or incorrect information out there on not just kink and BDSM, but sex and personal and community wellness that if we work together and compile various lessons on all of these topics and create a free 101 database of educational content, we can help combat that, the bad information that's out there.

And this is going to be like a crowdfunded project.

And of course, the educational materials are going to be free.

So it's going to be kind of like a Patreon-type subscription, even though they have terms of service that wouldn't allow for the type of not safe for work content that will be contained in what we do.

But we will have a Patreon-type subscription service.

And since the educational content is going to be free, what are we going to offer our subscribers?

And we've settled on filming complete scenes, including negotiations and aftercare, and having all parties that were involved in that scene do like behind the scenes narration on what their experience was throughout that scene.

And it will be uncensored, very personal, and we've talked to a number of people in the area that are interested in participating in these scenes for the bonus content and or donating some of their content that they already create as bonus content for this project, because it's important.

We're talking about, there's a lot of people that don't want to, because of liabilities, don't want to put out much information on breath play or sharps play.

Because, yes, it's risky, but as you were talking about before, people are going to do it.

They're going to find a way to do it.

If they don't have the correct and safest information on how to do it, they will find some other way and have a higher risk of injuring themselves.

So the information that we do have, to the best of our knowledge, should be out there and available.

Absolutely.

I mean, yes, we'll have our disclaimers, and we will be very careful about what we choose to put out there, but there needs to be at least a foundation on wound care and how to prevent or mitigate certain types of risks, you know?

Or handle when shit eventually does go wrong.

As Leif said, risk aware, shit happens.

Shit is probably going to happen.

Yeah.

Be prepared.

In fact, it will.

Shit's going to go wrong, and you need to do your best, have as much information as you can.

You need to know how to respond.

And yeah, we're really excited to be putting this project together.

We're going to start with some content that can be available, places like YouTube, Instagram and whatnot.

We'll cover things like consent and negotiations and aftercare and self-care and stuff where it's just like a classroom setting.

And then there's going to be stuff that's the mechanics of kink.

Some of it's going to be some basic sex education too.

And some more advanced stuff like...

Yeah, fisting, conilingus, anilingus, fellatio, you know, all hits.

Speaking of hits, also impact, using different impact tools and where and how, and perhaps talks about the body and certain trigger points for further nerve damage, or soreness in areas unexpected.

Coming soon!

Harmonize goodbye.

Goodbye!

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