Pain Thresholds & Negotiations

Pain Thresholds & Negotiations w/ Razzum Frazzum

In this weeks episode Clay & Todd talk with their friend Freddie about how their relationship with pain has changed over the years. They all negotiate some sharps play wherein Todd does some needle art on both Clay and Freddie, which will be featured in the upcoming BDSM 101 Project. Freddie is a cheerfully queer and trans artist, actor, and writer. As a student of the senses, he has been exploring the worlds of kink and ENM for 16 years, and delights in any opportunity to infodump about it. Freddie also writes, acts, and produces an audiodrama called Care And Feeding Of Werewolves.

Care And Feeding Of Werewolves podcast: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/care-feeding-of-werewolves-2158750

RazzumFrazzum on Fet: https://fetlife.com/users/8047623

Pain Thresholds & Negotiations w/ Razzum Frazzum Episode transcripT

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In this week's episode, Clay and Todd talked with their friend Freddie about how their relationship with pain has changed over the years.

They all negotiate some sharps play, wherein Todd does some needle art on both Clay and Freddie, which will be featured in the upcoming BDSM 101 project.

Freddie is a cheerfully queer and trans artist, actor, and writer.

As a student of the senses, he has been exploring the worlds of kink and E&M for 16 years and delights in any opportunity to infodump about it.

Freddie also writes, acts, and produces an audio drama called Care And Feeding Of Werewolves.

So we made it?

We wanted to talk about kink, pain threshold specifically, but you've had an interesting kink journey.

You were in the scene, actually, in Eugene for a bit.

You were pretty active there, and then-

For a couple years, yeah.

You moved away.

You want to tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah.

When-

You don't have to.

Well, when I was in Eugene, I used to go to the play parties at Conrad's every Tuesday, I think it was.

What's Conrad's?

Conrad's was-

Is that a bar?

It was a private home.

Okay.

So this person is Conrad.

This person is Conrad.

Okay.

He hosted play parties from the 1970s up till recently.

Older.

Yes.

Bam.

Yes.

It was the longest established kink play party in, I think, the region.

Shit.

So it was a piece of history.

A piece of history indeed.

Yeah.

And I was very, very lucky to learn caning.

Okay.

Learning caning from Conrad's?

From Conrad.

Okay.

From Conrad.

From Conrad.

Okay.

And he's one of the top cane artists.

Yeah, I think you actually recommended that I reach out to him.

And I think I did message him on FetLife, but he hasn't responded.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not sure what's going on with the play parties there, or if he's still active or anything like that.

So.

Well, I'm learning caning a bit.

I'm happy with my progress.

Yeah.

I like caning.

I like receiving caning.

I like giving caning.

Caning is just, it's grand.

It sounds awesome.

It's the rattan vibrator.

So.

And then another thing that I did fairly often was needles, needle play, bottoming for it, specifically.

I never topped.

And I liked combining needle play with violet wands.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I've heard that is quite fun for some people.

It's amazing.

I love it.

And the best thing is that you get souvenirs because it looks like little tire trip, little railroad tracks going down.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Except these little micro brands under the skin.

And it doesn't leave scarring.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Oh, mm-hmm.

It's so much fun.

Needles are, I think, so I haven't had that much experience with needles.

But so far, sometimes they will bruise more heavily and sometimes they don't.

And I think that is a combination of things.

Where you do it, how you're fucking with them, what kind of ones you're using, how you take them out, are you.

I think the idea today is to do a bit of a...

Fuckery...

.

exploring how to fuck with you and make things more challenging.

This is about Freddie, not me.

I mean, yes, yes.

No, no, no, no, no.

Just a little bit to get you out of the interviewer headspace.

Sure.

Let you dip down and then, then co-top with me as we're making it challenging for Freddie.

And I'm wondering, how long has it actually been since you've done Needle Play?

Because...

With someone else or with myself?

With someone else.

About 15 years.

Okay.

So it's been a while since I bottomed for somebody.

So I guess we should get to it.

I would like to...

Let's talk a bit about the changes that you've experienced in your pain threshold.

And then we can go ahead and just jump into negotiating what we want to achieve here in our play today.

And then also what you're going to need in aftercare.

What that should look like to make you feel...

Come down off of it.

Yeah.

Okay.

And now my mind went blank.

Yes, a lot of questions.

What was the first question?

pain threshold changes.

How has that changed?

Okay.

So how the pain threshold has changed is...

One of the interesting things with fibromyalgia is that it has...

It's one of the signifiers is that you have a very low pain threshold and a very high pain tolerance.

So the place where pleasure and pain intersect for somebody with fibromyalgia is going to be at a lower level.

With the way I'm wired, because I'm a pain slot, that means that the pain pleasure area is much wider.

It's because I have a wider range of sensitivity to pain.

So, the difficulty that I'm running into recently is that my background pain with the development of central pain syndrome is kind of like a white noise.

It's always there.

I just tune it out as best I can.

And as it progresses, my pain levels rise.

And so, the more sensation I tune out as best I can.

That means that with kink, it takes a more extreme amount of sensation to register.

And then it registers as pain.

Yeah.

So.

Rather than just sensation.

Yeah.

Rather is just part of the white noise.

So like with whipping and caning, I warm up very, very, very, very quickly.

Because if you try to just go easy and slight and ease into it, I'm going to get bored.

I'm going to get bored and I'm going to get annoyed.

Yeah.

But if you start out with a nice big whack and then just.

Heat up the area.

High heat.

Make it tingle.

Yeah.

Bring to a boil and then let simmer.

Yeah.

Japanese cooking, just crank it all the way up.

Uh-huh.

Absolutely.

That's, and then the duration of pain is different with central pain syndrome.

Because once a pain reaches a certain threshold, it becomes part of the permanent background noise.

The switch flips and that's it.

It's just part of it.

So injuries that take, it seems to be an injury that takes more than a week to heal, is one that I'm going to be feeling for the rest of my life.

So it's interesting and it's a delicate dance, but it's one that you do with communication.

Does it make you feel nervous going into something where you're playing with the pain threshold, and especially like if you need such a violent or not violent or you said extreme, is the word intense.

Yeah, intense amount of pain to get to an area of like, OK, this is the sweet spot, but like any more and it could be disastrous.

It seems to be the amount of damage that happens to the tissue.

OK.

The amount of time that my body has to spend repairing it seems to be the kicker.

I don't know exactly where my thresholds for this sort of thing are.

Something like a dislocation would probably be a permanent pain.

Something like a cut that needs stitches probably wouldn't.

OK.

So, going in with the idea of what could happen, that does everything for giving me control over it.

Because if I know the potential consequences, and I know exactly how badly something could fuck me out.

And that's part of informed consent, is knowing how badly something can fuck you up.

Is, I got to do my research first, just like anybody else.

I got to know myself just like anybody else.

Yeah.

Maybe it's a little more delicate, but the payoff is that big pain, pleasure range to dance in and to explore.

So that's the sweet spot.

The high that you chase.

That is.

That's my drug of choice.

It's been a while, but it sounds like we should have a lot of room to work with, and we can ease into it within reason.

You said you're concerned about blood sugar level.

When was the last time you checked that?

Just before you got here.

Okay.

It was 135.

So that's solid for the next few hours.

Okay.

I also had a snack just before you got here.

Okay.

I mean, we've got a lot of needles we could stick in you, but what we would want to do is, we're going to get a sense of what kind of craftiness we're going to work into it.

We're going to mark out a pattern.

Do you want to say like, shoot for 20 needles?

Is that a bit much?

No.

Is that good?

Is that a good target?

Is that a good target?

And then...

That's a good target.

And then, like, something I'm trying to...

A principle I'm trying to stick with is, like, to not renegotiate mid-scene.

So, like, let's decide on a number, and then...

Like, it's one thing to, like, have a deep rapport with someone and be like, yes, I know I can take more or, you know, whatever.

But we haven't played a lot, and I think it's...

Twenty needles will be very comfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's enough.

It's enough for a good...

Good experience.

A good high.

A good experience.

Yeah.

Now, you're...

You get that Axis Moondie sensation where you're just like stuck at the top of the world.

Now, you did mention, you brought up an idea, and this is kind of new to me, but the idea of an endorphin button.

Do you want us to aim to do a couple of those?

Sure.

Yeah.

A couple of Axis or...

You just crisscross under the skin.

And then you can wrap them with...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that sounds lovely.

I think we'll work that into the design of what we do.

Yeah.

Okay.

I've also got like ribbons, beads, body paints.

Yeah.

We have a number of things that we can work with.

Cool.

Okay.

And then for aftercare, we'll get to the design.

I know what I want to do to Clay.

So we can, as I'm working him down into that headspace, we can finalize the design we're going to do on you.

But for now, what should aftercare look like for you?

For me, aftercare, after a needle scene is pretty minimal.

Too much sensation of any kind after that, it just takes away from the high.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, and it's a different kind of experience, but I just.

I'm remembering when you did needles on me, and I did needles on you that one morning.

And it was the first time that I had done needles on you, or you had bottomed to needles.

And you were riding this high of like, oh, it feels like I just got a pierce thing.

And he was like, you want to smoke a cigarette after this?

And you were just like, you got so giggly, and you wanted nicotine.

That's what you wanted as your aftercare for that.

Yeah, I got some cannabis that'll be absolutely perfect for that.

And I've got my tarot cards, because it always puts me in that kind of mood.

And so, cannabis and shuffling my cards is...

I'm right there with you.

I smoke a joint right after my scenes.

Before and after, really.

So that's pretty much what I need for aftercare.

It's not like a beating and being tormented in other ways.

It's a completely different kind of thing, for sure.

I mean, honestly, for me, a needle scene could be aftercare for a really intense scene.

Yeah.

It's like acupuncture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the feeling that it causes is meditative and rooted, and just...

Yeah.

Agree.

I don't know if I share the same sentiment.

Needles, they like...

Yes, a little bit I've experienced that rooted feeling, and more of like an excitement, like, oh, okay, it's happened.

It's done.

It's over.

Oh, my God, like, they're still in me or they're out or whatever, and, you know, playing around with whatever damage is left.

But most of the time, I'm just, I'm just psyching myself up in my head, like...

Well, you haven't had a...

You haven't done a ton of needle play either.

No.

You know?

And like, I don't know, my big kink, my one of my big kinks is like fear play.

And so like to be afraid of the things that are happening is more fun than like the pain that I'm experiencing from it.

Yeah.

And I'm all about the sensation.

Yeah.

So, I mean, for me, you know, fear is...

I have anxiety disorder.

Fear is a way of life.

And when I'm in a scene, especially when I'm submitting, then the fear melts away.

Yeah.

So, it's an escape from fear for me.

So, it's interesting that we, like...

Different strokes.

Yeah.

It's...

I love the various reasons people get into kink and what people get out of it.

It's absolutely amazing.

Yeah.

And it provides someone like me with the opportunity to stick you in a bunch of various different ways that may or may not be way too fucking painful for me.

But to know what it's like and well, not what it feels like, obviously, but to know what the mechanics of it all is.

I don't know.

To give me a different perspective on it.

Yeah.

There's something that you get out of topping that you don't get out of botany.

And that goes the same with needles as anything else.

I've never topped somebody else with needles.

No.

I don't have anybody that's willing to.

But you have interest in it?

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, we're looking at, maybe starting next month, doing regular play parties.

I really like the idea of just doing like sharps part, like small group sharps parties.

Like, it's kind of easier than getting out all of your jink here, for one.

Oh my God.

Get a monkey chain going.

No.

Where everybody's like doing needles on each other's backs.

And I'm trying to think of the science behind like, and then if you have one person touch the electrified thing, would all of, would it send it through everyone's needles?

Like, I bet it would.

Get Bill Nye in here.

But you know he's a kinkster.

He's got to be.

Got to be.

Alton Brown is a total kinkster.

He's putting people in spreader cuffs on his show.

He is not hiding it.

wait, what?

The Alton Brown cooking show?

When did he do that?

Oh, he's got this cooking show where he gives all sorts of...

where he just torments the people.

They have to cook doing all sorts of stuff with like weird ingredients and malfunctioning equipment.

But the spreader bars is his favorite.

So they're sitting there cooking like...

I would eat that shit up.

It is a joy.

And I don't know if I want to be a contestant or a judge, you know?

It's one of those.

I would thoroughly enjoy being either a contestant or a judge or something like that.

Especially Dalton Brown.

Yeah.

They were on the Dildorks podcast, they were talking about the guy who does The Hot Ones show, how he's got to be at least intimately familiar with doming people.

Because the way he talks to them, he helps them power through things, and very sweet, providing...

A source of stability.

Yeah, when they're just losing their shit.

The fire of it all.

And I think a lot of folks that do work like that, whether to kitchen or as a spectacle, like a show, you know, shows like that, I think people like that are more inclined to be, you know, say guests.

They enjoy watching you scramble for them.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

It's one of the things that I liked when I was, when I had a sub is the impossible task.

Yes.

Yes.

I even enjoy that like even as a submissive sometimes, just to be an impossible person.

Oh god.

Sometimes that impossible task thing is being on the receiving end.

And I don't, I don't know if I love it or hate it.

It's a reaction and it's huge, but I don't know what it is.

Yeah, it's definitely a something.

It fills you with what we're unsure.

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