Lee Returns!!

Caring for Yourself & Partners w/ Lee Harrington

In this week’s episode Clay & Todd talk with Author & Educator Lee Harrington about Self Care, meeting the emotional, spiritual, & physical needs of our subs & dominants, and the importance of clear communication. With there being so many interchangeable terms used across the BDSM community, throughout our talk we see exactly how important it is to communicate clearly. The use of highly specific language, and tools for when we are overwhelmed & have trouble articulating our physical & emotional states help us to reduce risk, and make sure that OUR needs, and the needs of our partners, are met - in our play and our dynamics.

Lee Harrington - https://www.passionandsoul.com/

Rose Fox - https://luckybatbooks.com/rose-fox/

Meow Wolf - https://meowwolf.com/

Raven Kaldera - https://ravenkaldera.org/

Routes of Safety - Jake Earnst MSW - https://www.mswjake.com/resources

The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of Her Own Making by Catherynne M. Valente - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9591398-the-girl-who-circumnavigated-fairyland-in-a-ship-of-her-own-making

Pain Thresholds & Negotiations w/ Razzum Frazzum Episode transcripT

This is The Subspace Exploration Project.

Join us for a deep dive into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and community building.

In each episode, we're deconstructing the gender binary, celebrating queer culture, and creating a safe space for sex education, all while learning from authors, educators, mental health professionals, and folks like you and me.

In this week's episode, Clay and Todd talk with author and educator Lee Harrington about self-care, meaning the emotional, spiritual, and physical needs of our subs and dominance, and the importance of clear communication.

With there being so many interchangeable terms used across the BDSM communities, throughout our talk, we see exactly how important it is to communicate clearly.

The use of highly specific language and tools for when we are overwhelmed and have trouble articulating our physical and emotional states help us to reduce risk and make sure that our needs and the needs of our partners are met in our play and in our dynamics.

I thought it would be great to check in with you, see how you're doing, and talk with you about something that we've had conversations with a number of our friends and peers lately about self-care and the often neglected caring for our doms and tops.

It's kind of one of those things that the focus is always on subs, bottoms, and which is of course very, very important because they're usually the subject of a lot of terrible and lovely things.

But yeah, I would like to get to your thoughts on mental, physical, and spiritual care for our doms.

But first, how are you doing?

I'm well.

I'm well.

I just got to hire on a potential new personal assistant.

We're doing a three-month adventure together to see if it's a fit.

As you can see across the screen.

So that's super exciting to me.

And I just had my 13-year self anniversary with me yesterday.

So I really am appreciating that though today being 9-11.

I'm also sitting with the people that we lost, including someone from my Leather family, and all of those that are still remembered, and to this day, are still being affected both psychologically and physically in New York, and Pennsylvania, and beyond, including people in our own community who have been part of First Responders, who have family members that were lost, and more.

So I'm really sitting with that and holding onto that in my heart today.

Congratulations on your anniversary.

What is a self-anniversary?

Thank you.

It's actually where my book Playing Low with Others, the brainchild for it came from, that I was on a a performing arts slash theater slash other things tour with Cat Valente and SJ.

Tucker.

And people might know Cat from their book, The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland.

Cut.

Try again.

Some people might know Cat from their book, The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland or simply the Fairyland novels.

They were a New York Times bestselling series for YA.

And I was on a tour with them for one of their adult books.

And I ended up paired up with an amazing person named Rose Fox.

And Rose had a wedding ring on.

I'm like, oh, are you and your partner here married?

And they said, no, no, no, this is my ring to myself when I married me.

And I'm like, okay, what?

I like, you got to tell me more.

And she talked about the idea that you're with you for life, that there's no such thing as self-divorce, that if you're going to have this relationship with you, she might as well treat herself with the same degree of respect she would treat a spouse.

And my brain was blown open.

I'm like, okay, I got to sit with this.

So a whole bunch of steps later and people want to read about that, they can read about in my book or other places I've written about it.

But I got married to me in the woods outside of Raven Kaldera's house and did a ceremony with myself making vows to myself.

And then afterwards got a cake and shared it with all my friends because that's part of what a marriage includes for me is eating food with the people you love to bear witness to your vows, right?

And bear witness to the thing that you care about.

And so it's been 13 years since I did that thing.

And every year I set aside my anniversary with me with the same degree of love and respect, I would set aside my anniversary with any other partner, right?

That if on that day I'm busy, I make a different day.

I don't just write it off as like, oh, well, I'm busy that day, just like I would with a partner, right?

I'm not available on our anniversary.

Well, then let's sit down and schedule our anniversary dinner, right?

Like that sort of thing.

And so I took myself on an anniversary day and went to Meow Wolf.

Actually, my anniversary present to myself was a year-long membership to Meow Wolf.

For folks who are not familiar with it, just check out Meow Wolf and have your mind boggled.

It's weird.

It's a very weird experience.

Went out to Great Mexico.

I was just telling Todd about Meow Wolf, so this is the second time it's been mentioned.

You didn't actually explain what Meow Wolf is.

Meow Wolf is an experience.

It's actually a series of locations.

One is here in Denver, Convergence.

One is in Albuquerque.

One, I think it's in Albuquerque, it's in Santa Fe.

Anyway, it's in New Mexico.

One is located in Las Vegas.

One is open in Texas, though a second one is opening up in houston on Halloween.

And they are these immersive art experiences with a plot line that you can either follow the plot line, you could just go and have it be an immersive experience.

And they bring together anywhere from 75 to 100 and some odd artists in their area to make installations that are within the plot line so that you can follow the space through to find out the answer.

And you can, again, like I said, either follow the plot line or just go and be like, what the hell is going on?

It is referred to sometimes as being on a sober psychedelic experience.

And though I do know people who choose to have it not be a sober psychedelic experience, which is why they have evenings called Adulterverse, where it is no one under 18 allowed in the venue, or maybe no one under 21, because then you could have drinking happen in the location.

And here in Denver, it's large enough, it also gets used for concerts and for performance art evenings and things like that.

Though the Vegas one is much smaller, but each of the locations are different and have a different plot line.

Though my understanding is the plot line somehow weave together, but they are different experiences.

And tickets, however, are very expensive.

You can imagine when you have a location that is, you know, the size of a football stadium with multiple levels, it's a lot of upkeep, right?

And so, so yeah, and a lot that it went into it, though there are some opinions on the Denver one specifically on how they treated their artists with the installations itself and what they're being paid for with percentages.

But it's, it's a thing and I've gone, and so I made a decision for my anniversary, that I bought myself a year membership because the difference between a one-time entry and a year membership was $30.

So I'm like, you know what?

I'm going to do this thing.

Why not?

And so yeah, I went to Meow Wolf and then also just spent some quality time at home, dancing in the dark with no one else around, which I love doing because I'm really shy about dancing for some reason.

Everybody's got their thing, right?

Yeah.

But it's funny that you bring up the topic and say that, how do we take care of our tops and domes because I think part of it is this notion of self-relationship, is this notion of what does a specific person want.

But I actually disagree with your premise that we talk all the times about subs and bottoms.

I disagree.

And the reason in scenes, I completely concur that in scenes, people talk about what do you need during the scene?

What do you need for aftercare?

And it is less common, but not a zero to ask your tops or the people or doms in a scene what they might want or need.

Or like it happens.

But in relationships, I actually find it can be the opposite direction, where it's how can I serve you, ma'am?

What do you need done to take care of our realities?

How can we focus on the vision you have as the dominant?

To the point that when Master Asriel, Asriel Rose talks about when slave Magi died suddenly, when Magi Rose died suddenly last year, and you can read about all of that online or at least large parts about it, and he teaches about this now in his experience of sudden death in MS He talked about the fact that she took care of so much for them and their household, that he didn't know how to pay some of the bills.

That he didn't know what was being, he didn't know what conversation, he wrote me out of the blue and said, hey, can you find out whether I've actually got tickets for Dark Odyssey or not?

because we haven't been able to get into her email account yet, and I'm supposed to fly out there today and I don't know.

And so I was able to luckily call the producers and they were like, no, actually they don't have tickets and cannot be resolved because of this.

We were able to have a conversation, but it was really interesting this question of how much is taken care of in the other directions when it comes to logistics or daily care needs.

How many people I know that are service-oriented MS couples rather than possession-oriented?

Service-oriented ones where a service person knows everything about their mistress, their dom, their whatever.

But the other direction, other than maybe food allergies, isn't necessarily noted as deeply.

And so I think what premise is interesting, if we break down what shape of relationship are we talking about?

But if we're talking about Clay, I 112 percent agree.

I guess it's within the context of certain types of dynamics.

And the way I see these containers and these relationships, I think at least more so these days, there's a lot more emphasis on the needs of the person on the right side of the slash.

And a lot is built up on their emotional and mental health needs.

And then from there, play can occur and be enjoyed.

Yes, I threw you for a big loop for that, because I mean, the reason when you contacted me about discussing it, I'm like, I'm excited to discuss it as long as, in my opinion, we state that there's diversities of relationships.

And so therefore, diversities on whether or not this applies in the same way.

Right?

What I'm hearing there is under a construct, whether it's in play or in relationship, where the question is, what do you need out of your aftercare?

What do you need for relationship success?

What do you need if the habit in parts of our community or large parts of our community is to have it be monodirectional?

What is our remembering towards having it be in a collaboration in a relationship?

If we're doing it so much obsessively in one, how much work is it going to take?

because if it's been like, oh, we have a habit of 60-40 of asking these questions.

If it's been 80-20, we have so much more work we have to do to be able to build back up the side that has been left out in the cold or left out in the sweltering heat, depending on where you are right now.

Yeah.

There is this sense of guilt that can form for either side of the slash if that conversation is not being had or and if it's been too much of an 80-20, as you said.

And that is a dangerous place to be when you're playing with the kind of things that you play with, fear and humiliation and your basic needs and your innermost scariest shit.

You have to have those conversations of what is needed and what works for you.

And it's not always going to be that the submissive or the slave is going to have a fuckton of needs.

I feel like there's this idea that the submissive is going to have all of these things that they need.

They need all this care and attention.

And then the dom or master is not needing those things, but that's just simply not true.

And each dynamic takes on its own shape of needs and how each partner can provide for those needs.

Yeah, and it's interesting to have submissive, like you have a submissive that is in charge of all of these bills and financial things, and that's such a scary place to be in.

All of a sudden, you don't have that person who's been managing all of that stuff for you.

And you have no idea how to take care of this very, very important, real-world responsibilities that can have such catastrophic consequences should you not all of a sudden not be able to fulfill them, you know?

Right, and talking about not paying the bills and talking about needing protein after being whipped are clearly an array of things, right?

And to put one on the same quote level as another is a fallacy.

And so I think maybe it's worthwhile to pause for a second and say if we are negotiating with someone and saying what are your needs in play or what are your needs in relationship to maybe talk about one and then maybe talk about the other that we might have that get asked for or get offered, right?

What are some examples?

Let's say play.

Let's start with play.

It's an easier one with play being a huge category, right?

From everything from giving service for one evening to a whipping to anything else, right?

To hot sex.

When we say play or a one-night thing, what are some examples of things a person might need afterwards during aftercare or for upkeep?

What are some things?

Closeness, talking about it, closeness with your bodies, food, smokes, a shower, perhaps something completely, a lot of people will do a vanilla sex after their play.

Or I was just thinking about the idea of doing something even more grounding, kind of like needle play after a super intense scene can sometimes be a type of re-grounding for the partners.

just things off the top of my head.

Or sitting down on the couch, just smoking a joint and watching TV and just tuning out for a little bit.

Maybe cuddling with someone on the couch while you're doing that.

Or maybe you need to not be in close proximity with someone for a spell.

Right.

So not close proximity could be an example of physically spending time alone, or could be about going off with someone else.

This is sometimes referred to as handing off aftercare.

Right.

So you go hang out with your friend, especially in encounters where one or one partner or both partners have been villains in some way.

Right.

So it could be closeness, emotional or physical.

It could be separateness, emotional or physical.

It could be logistical, who is taking care of X, Y, or Z activity, i.e.

somebody bringing you a glass of water.

I'm hearing the idea of physiological needs.

So water, food, other sorts of chemical inputs if desired.

I'm also here, like one of the things I hear about sometimes is tactile experiences.

So it's not just physical proximity.

It could be instead a blanket wrapped around someone or somebody getting to curl up in a ball or pet a pet.

And all of these are things.

And these are some, and I love these.

I'm sure people listening at home can come up with lots of other ones too.

These are all examples of tools for returning to homeostasis or a standard normalcy of existence in the world, right?

How do we get our brain to reach its equilibrium, its balance, its how we can operate?

I think of Raven Kaldera also talking about this is in spiritual spaces, but talking about if he's been in altered states of consciousness, he will go and eat and can't get out of it, right?

He keeps slipping into that headspace.

He will go and eat bad Chinese food and work on his taxes.

He's still in an altered state and he doesn't want to stay there, but what's the thing?

because for some people, it's a how do I soft land and for other folks, it's like, how the fuck do I get out of this headspace?

In those cases, some of these are gentle landing tools, and for other people, they're hard landing tools.

Let's just get the hell out of this headspace.

In which case, it's also things like calling somebody by their world at large name or changing clothing, which changing clothing in general could be a soft or a hard landing tool.

What I'm hearing that as well is when I talk about how can these things be offered by someone else, it's somebody bringing you that fuzzy blanket.

It's somebody bringing you that glass of water.

It's somebody holding on to you or asking you questions.

It's somebody having their own self-capabilities enough to give you space to go be alone, which is not a thing that everybody can offer, which is why you end up with conflicts in aftercare needs.

But comes with these capacity to self-care or care with someone else that you can go have your alone time.

Things that people can offer here, these are the things people want, desire, want, or need, right?

Big spectrum there.

If it's somewhere on there, which of these can you actually offer?

And that we do trend towards in one time, one evening, or reoccurring play, we trend towards asking this of the person who is on the receiving of experiences.

And so this makes me think in, and I come back to the example of having your submissive, taking care of finances, bills.

Did you say house mortgage?

Everything.

Everything.

She took care of everything other than the money that was in his wallet.

Like, yeah, and it was a sudden, like it wasn't, it was a sudden death.

And they'd always joked and planned that he was notably older and he joked made worse decisions in life.

So they made all the plans in the other direction.

So we're looking at the opposite end of what care do people need or what care is being offered.

That if we become dependent on a care that's being offered and or caring is offered.

because even in play, I know people who have become dependent or assumptive on, well, of course, my submissive is going to bring me water after a scene.

And if they play with somebody brand new, they're just sitting there wondering why their submissive isn't bringing them water after a scene because they've become so body-embedded and brain-embedded in the notion that submissive equals water appearing.

And it's laughable when it's a glass of water.

It's not laughable when it's your bills.

I think my brain is having a hard time wrapping around, like, I don't really know why, but like the self-care and caring for your tops and bottoms or your submissives and bottoms, and offering services like taking care of bills and finances.

Those, like, they somehow seem like separate categories of care.

Exactly.

That's exactly my point.

Is that sometimes in DS Dynamics, we skip to those questions compared to asking, like, do you want some water?

Do you want some time alone?

What can I do to take responsibilities off your plate and make up for all the care that?

And so to consider in both, like, which types of questions around care are we asking?

When people are starting out at least, there's a big emphasis on the, well, like, say I want to structure a schedule, a protocol for my sub.

What are, what is, what am I trying to achieve?

What do I need to build here?

You know, these are some, you know, basic life management with, with a spicy spin on it kind of structure that I want to put in place.

Cool, we've got some protocol.

And then in the moment, in scene, what are the spicy things we're playing off of each other's needs there?

But I think it's, it's really the, the immediate care, things that really help ground a person or elevate a person.

And also the deeper emotional things.

Those are the things that people tend to not necessarily prioritize as often as maybe they should, I think.

So I think one of the challenges I'm having in this conversation I'm realizing, is that your conflation linguistically of Dom equals top and Sub equals bottom, and even, and completion of, a completion of things like saying sub or slave, like using these things interchangeably is leaving me going back and forth between topics.

Are we discussing in this experience, in this desired conversation?

Are we discussing desires for physical activities and discussing physical activities?

Or are we discussing relational needs and or structures for relationship dynamics?

Which are we talking about?

because those do not equate each other.

I know a lot of people who engage in physical activities, which do not have long-term relationship or that these things are different, right?

Taking care of somebody's bank balance has nothing to do with returning to a psychological homeostasis.

It talks about the success and well-running of an entire relationship and or household.

But both of these issues are about success of all parties involved.

But I think these are two different topics that are language-wise, we're using them interchangeably.

I think it might be worthwhile to break these topics apart.

Yeah.

I think what I want to get to is more often, depending on the cultures we're coming from, as you pointed out, there's kind of a little imbalance in focus on the emotional needs of the sub or the dom.

In what kinds of situations is what I'm asking, though, because the needs of the sub or the dom could be about building a house, or could be about, did I just spank you?

So I'm trying to understand which kinds of situations we're talking about.

Are you saying in all of those?

Yeah, yes.

I'm talking about when there is a significant imbalance, that tends to mean that there's an overemphasis on the emotional needs of one.

And that tends to translate to all areas.

Maybe not necessarily the play.

Maybe there might be some pretty good balance within the play.

But outside of that, in the emotional relationship and the long-term needs, that's where we really see the imbalance.

So it seems like you're talking more about the relationship, the house building, the dynamic building rather than the play you're engaging in and coming back to homeostasis.

Interesting, because the language we have been using is interchangeable between both these conversations.

I think it's really key in a relationship.

Which one are we talking about in any given moment of conversation?

because I think actually in play, people are more likely to say things like, bottom, what do you need, bottom, what do you need, bottom, what do you need?

Yeah, you're asking top, what do you need, top, what do you need, top, what do you need?

I love Molina Williams' joke of when people say to her, do you need some chocolate or fuzzy blankets?

She's like, that's a great idea.

I should bring those to my top.

She actually travels sometimes.

When she was doing pickup play, it's been a while.

But she used to travel with chocolate for her tops.

Could have turned that trope on its head.

But it's really interesting that it's your experience that in relationships, it is predominantly or only focused on the needs of the sub.

That is not necessarily my cultural experience.

I definitely see pockets of our local community where it can definitely be the other way.

But I think there's a cultural shift over recent years to really emphasize, making sure all needs of subs were met for a very good reason.

But left out of that equation, I think is enough of a focus.

And this is in conversation with other folks in the community.

They're saying left out of that conversation is what Doms tend to need emotionally to be the best, and to be present and healthy in their dynamics.

Okay.

So we're not even talking about logistical.

We're not talking about bills.

We're talking specifically about the care and emotional feeding in power exchange dynamics, or things get called power exchange, which can be a whole lot of different stuff.

Yeah.

The care and feeding emotionally, and what helps that person on the, quote, left side of the slash, right?

If we were to put a dominant submissive as left side of the slash.

Yeah.

For folks who might be tuning in for the first time.

Making sure their emotional needs are met.

We're not talking about logistical like food and water.

We are talking about emotional care.

Is that correct that we are now on the same?

Yes, yes, yes.

I think that we've spent literally a half an hour on slightly different pages of the comic book.

That's the problem with the language of our community.

Yeah.

Is we will say things like, sir, do you need anything?

Sir is thinking, I'm good.

I don't need water.

I've got water.

Boy is saying, the boy is saying, well, no, I'm asking if I can care for your emotional needs.

I want to make sure that you're okay.

But the same words, can I get you anything?

I think that's part of the challenge too, is making sure that we're all on the shared page for even have the discussion you're talking about.

Right?

That I have been, who has been in the scene, like who's been playing privately for 30 years, didn't know which page you were on.

I'm sorry.

I guess I started off and I said, I did point to spiritual and emotional needs at the beginning of the conversation, but that I let us start in a bit more casual space and we kind of just we meandered in a different direction.

It's interesting because this notion as well, and I think this is we might come from a different space on this, is this notion that spiritual needs are differentiated from the idea of I need water.

This is a false line in my brain.

No.

Again, that's profoundly different opinions of individuals.

Yeah.

Are my spiritual needs being met also is included by profound gratitude for the fact that water in our country is taken for granted by many people.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, worldwide, how many people do not have access to clean water including inside our own country.

To me, that is part of a spiritual and psychological understanding of the gratitude of taking water into my body.

I know that's a side quest for a hot second, but the reason I say that is, again, goes back to the notion of which question are we asking.

But if we ask the question, person on the left side of the slash, and this is if you are that person listening right now, person on the left side of the slash, what would help you thrive in this moment?

What would help you succeed in this relationship to be fully aware, present, and in your greatness of self?

Or if those words are all too woo-woo, what would help?

Right now, what would help?

And to ask yourself that question, because I think one of the challenges in sharing that answer with another being, is that we don't know the answer.

So even if somebody looks us in the eyes or has their head bowed and pointed out their, our boots, what can I do for you, ma'am?

How can I best serve you my royalty?

Got to have some gender neutral options in there.

What can I do for you, boss?

If we don't have that answer, and I meet a lot of folks on the left side of the slash, who don't leave themselves enough down space to ask themselves that question, who are afraid to have the room be silent enough to ask themselves that question.

And so I think that would be the first thing to do, because I meet a lot of folks on the right side of that slash, who have been asked that question enough, who have practiced the question, what can I get for you?

What do you need?

So that even when the little question gets brought up, can I get you anything?

They've already thought about that a little bit.

Or if they don't have an answer, I, God, who was I talking to recently?

Somebody I was talking to recently didn't know that answer.

When somebody asked it, and so they made themself a checklist.

They were like, oh, well, I've been asked this question twice by the person I'm in service to, so clearly I should have an answer.

So they made a giant list of 400 ideas, and then went through it and people were like, do you want this?

Then they were like, nah, not very often, and they crossed it off until they hit the greatest hits.

They were able to hand their greatest hits to their top, or dominant, I don't remember which one it was, and be like, if I can't have an answer because mouth no work, here are six easy ones to choose from.

Keep them in your phone.

It's hilarious.

At the same time, if you're not good Johnny on the spot, if you're not great at having answers in the moment, it's an amazing idea.

And what would it be like for us on the left side of the slash to do that?

If in doubt, here's a standing order list for the people on the right side of slash to do for us.

If we stare at them and go, I don't need anything, I can quickly kind of look at the list and be like, does ma'am have this?

Does ma'am have this?

Fit in sometime in next two weeks that ma'am might want that.

And that's also called predictive service.

Who were we talking to that, like if you don't know, if you can't possibly think of what you need or what someone else you want to provide for needs, create those lists of like when in doubt, check out these five things.

But yeah, this idea, and I wonder what it would be like for folks on the left side of slash to do that work for themselves.

I mean, this also makes me think, um, about a lot of people hate journaling, me myself included.

I don't like it, but it is incredibly helpful for both me and my Dom to be journaling.

And something that has been even more helpful to like settle my mind, to know what he's thinking is reading his journal entries and having, like, I have a lot of, like, anxiety around, like, am I doing enough?

Is like, I'm worrying about the comfort level of everybody, and most especially my Dom, and like if he's stressed out or what kind of help does he need?

What does he want from me?

And can I provide that?

And then feeling bad about that.

And so we're both creating journal entries for us to just peep at when we have capacity for it and get a check-in in a container where we like, my journal entries are much less put together thoughts than my Dom's.

Mine are very much a stream of consciousness of anxieties and worries and things that I need, things that I want, things that I'm thinking about, things that really excite me or that I was really pleased to be able to do.

And that is really valuable information to read into and clean what your left or right side of the slash might need from you, or how you could possibly fill in those gaps.

If somebody is not a journaler, another tool I found really useful is to have a couple of notebook files or notes files open on your phone.

That if you have anxiety, just go to the anxiety one and just type in sponges and then go to another one.

Keeping those as running thoughts, bullet points.

because some people hear journal entry and they're imagining 2-12 page long form.

It doesn't have to be that.

For other people, it's literally audio recording.

But I know some people for doing stuff in a vacuum, their brain doesn't access knowledge in that way.

And so having a friend and friend can also be random stranger on the internet that you found on FetLife who's part of the same group as you.

Yeah.

I'm getting permission from them to have these conversations.

because either writing or having phone calls back and forth, you might reveal it's one of the reasons that therapy is so important is it's being able to talk in the same room as somebody who is giving you paid perspective.

And so therapy sessions or friendship dialogues, or being able to talk to an honored elder within whatever your community is.

So that could be a family member, that could be somebody else in the kink community.

This could be turning to a tribal elder, whatever your realities are.

I bring up that last one because I know a lot of folks that are indigenous, for example, that don't have access to indigenous savvy therapists.

Let alone kink savvy, indigenous savvy therapists, right?

Like these things they're layering on.

But I love this idea of journaling.

And what I especially love is you said, getting to turn to their journals to understand them and what they might need better.

And Todd, what you were asking about of like, how can we do this a little better?

What a gift you are offering by doing that journaling.

Yeah.

You are giving a space for somebody to look into your mind and be able to get some of those answers, even if you haven't stated them clearly.

I think it's only fair because, I mean, leading up to play, I kind of made it a rule like, yes, I would like a journal entry every single day.

But definitely, if we've got a scene planned, I need your state of mind, all of your anxieties for the three days leading up to that, because I need to know exactly where your head's at and where you need to go.

How we're going to get there.

But after doing that long enough, and then having a couple of hiccups here and there where I sat on something, I got stressed out, I went down a rabbit hole and it got bad, and then I got really stressed out and then we finally talked about it and it was like, oh, we could have just talked about this, you know?

And to be able to just journal and just write it out as we should when we are able to, or voice record, or make a Snapchat or whatever, just to note your frame of mind, some thoughts, even if they're not fully put together, and either save it for later or share it.

It really helps you put things into perspective and be able to frame things for the people that you are in relationship with in whatever kind of container.

But yeah, I think it's only fair, and it's immensely helpful, I think, for everybody involved to have a good sense of frame of mind and concerns.

But I think at the root of it, no matter where, which direction that imbalance leans, I think at the heart of it, it's a matter of like, we're all people pleasers to a certain extent.

And sometimes we have a hard time.

You get to a point where you're like, either right now or in general, I don't like to seem needy.

I don't want to lay on them this dress or this concern if I have a need.

And so that's, I think, a very common hesitation.

It's just, I don't want to be perceived as needy, but to be needy is just to have needs and we all have needs, you know?

Oh, and it's interesting that you say everyone, you know, nobody wants to do this, etc.

I think it's worth challenging ourselves when we make these whole and encompassing statements, because there are people in the, you know, the left side, the slash, etc.

that are, that have no issue in doing this.

And so if you are listening right now and you're like, this is so not a thing I worry about, of course I'm going to tell someone if they ask me.

Understand there's people who don't, right?

But I think it is important to consider what needs we do have.

And I am going to offer a concept, I found it, from the fantastic MSW Jake Earnst called Routes of Safety.

So if folks are not familiar with this concept, it's the different ways, if there's been an emotional moment where you're not sure how to return to feeling safe, right?

That there's eight different major routes.

The first and the reason I am offering this in this moment is because as you're listening to them, think in reverse.

That if you're like, how do I, instead of saying, how do I do something if something's been ruptured or if I don't feel safe, how do I set myself up for success so that I have more, you know, more padding there in life?

So as not to reach a rupture point?

I mean, sometimes we do, but to mitigate the risk of that happening.

Right.

So think about things if your person says, what can I offer you?

What are the things that would help bolster up your life?

That some of these might be answers to consider.

The first is inner guidance.

The idea of this is self-journaling.

This is looking inside.

So in the case of what can they offer you, it's some alone time.

Or being quiet and letting me talk out loud to you without you saying anything back.

I'm not asking for your opinions.

I'm asking you to be there for me as I talk this out loud.

These are something that you can offer someone.

Offer your dominant.

Structure and certainty is the next one.

And structure and certainty, oftentimes we think or imagine that that is a thing, like dominance creates structure and certainty for the submissive.

I actually meet a lot of relationships actually going back to Master Asriel where the structure and certainty that was constructed that helped support him was Slave Moggy creating those systems in the house, right?

So what can I offer you, ma'am, might be, can I build structures for you?

Can I create systems of certainty for you?

Oh, what would help you thrive in this relationship is knowing that I will be here every Tuesday with your tea on it, right?

Next might be sensory experiences.

So this goes back to the holding, physically holding on to you because people think of it with play, but sometimes it's also, I just need you to come over here and be my footstool.

If it's on the spicy side or lay on my lap while we watch TV, or be my physical pillow while we watch TV, right?

But sensory experiences of all sorts.

This is also cooking food.

This is, and it's not just about the food.

It's about the idea of returning towards a place of emotional balance through our kinesthetic body.

Yeah.

Right.

This can also include, how do you help us have better strength in our relationship?

Or how do I help you emotionally succeed?

And the answer is make sure we play every month.

Yeah.

You clear time so that this happens because I will feel more grounded and connected in this relationship through us getting our hanky-panky time on.

Next is quality relationships.

Jake often looks at this as having friends you can turn to in hard times.

But that can include making sure your boss, as it were, your kink boss, your human, has time with their friends.

Isn't the only other dominant that they know?

Helping them support, like supporting them while they build a mistress' support circle.

Yeah.

because we often think about, like, slave discussion groups.

But I love it when I see areas that have dominant or top talk or whatever it is, right?

Top talk is our local one here in Denver.

Protective measures, and that's thinking about in moments of feeling fear, that's things like logistically, your house has been broken into, you feel better when you install a security system, right?

Rather than you feel better because you lost it with your friends.

Yeah.

versus you feel better because you got to have somebody hold on to you while you cried, right?

If we go backwards through a house was broken into.

But I think in the case of Kink, what would you consider an example for this?

Like, if you were thinking about protective measures, what's a thing that somebody could offer you, Todd, that might be something that has you feel safer?

When things get a little bit more intense, I guess I haven't found it yet, but I think it's important to spend time and work out the specific things you need when you do more intense play and say, you occupy the role of the villain, and you need to feel grounded and reassured that they know that you're not the villain, and they appreciate you as who you are, and your willingness to occupy this role, and everything's okay.

Yeah.

So part of feeling safety would also then be about, for you, verbal, like a verbal statement of, I feel safe with you, and you are safe with me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's a pretty powerful one to find.

Yeah.

And the last, just a quick note, the last two ones that Jake offers are closeness and proximity.

So being in the same physical space as someone.

And if we're talking about, let's say, somebody was the villain victim in a scene, but we want to be able to return to having a thriving DS relationship outside of that play scene.

Closeness and proximity is, I want you to not leave the room.

I want you to show me that you're not actually scared of me.

Right?

I need to see you not run away after this scene.

because if you leave for an extended period of time, I as the dominant or top, either one, might go into a spin.

I know some people with, like, say, Rejection Sensitivity Disorder, that if somebody, like, now leaves them completely alone, they're like, oh my god, I've broken our relationship at, like, that full dance.

Right?

And I smile about it, but I smile about it because I sometimes go down those rabbit holes.

No, I hear you.

And then the last one is Private Retreat.

People who just, like, literally don't just need inner guidance where they think about it for themselves, but they're like, I am feeling unwell for whatever reason, or I need to return to us being able to thrive in our DS dynamic.

To do this well, I need a week physically away from us.

Or if we're taking it just on a psychological level, people who need a reset, where to have this thing thrive twice a year, they need a week of egalitarian dynamic.

So this could be a psychological one or a physical one.

A lot of it's physical.

I feel like here in a month or two or three, we need to have a part two of this conversation because we just started to get into...

I actually want to look at this list and read through these and contemplate them because this is some good stuff.

You said this is...

It's called Routes of Safety.

Jake was actually very kind and let me be the first person to publish on the work at all in a book.

Become Your Unbeloved has about six pages, six to 10 pages in it there as well as an exercise on the topic.

But it's called Routes of Safety.

The author is like the concept was created by Jake Earnst.

And he is on Instagram as JakeEarnstMSW.

So giant brain, follow him on Instagram, cannot speak highly enough about his work.

Well, that's lovely.

And I want to thank you for coming on and chatting with us and checking in.

Yeah, we have to have a part too.

And I also want to say thank you for it because literally we spent the first half being on slightly different pages of the comic book.

And so like that is one of the things that happens in these conversations is, for you folks at home who are trying to figure out, well, how do I make sure my top is getting enough of their needs met?

How do I make sure my mistress is getting enough of their needs met?

And the answer is first, find out if you're on the same page of discussion.

I mean, I think that perfectly illustrates how difficult it is to like figure these things out.

So I am grateful for y'all being game halfway through to help me figure this out.

Help all of us figure this out.

Yeah.

Thank you again.

We'll line up part two for sure.

Do you have anything going on in the immediate future that we should know about?

Absolutely.

Thank you for asking.

And folks can find out that answer always by going over to passionandsoul.com/events.

But this month, I'm going to be doing online.

I think that might be really nice for some folks who are listening on the 18th of September.

I am doing Playing Well With Others, a kink community primers.

So if those of you who are listening are like, I've been doing kink, but I want to get involved in community.

Check that out.

That's going to be online.

For therapists, though, that are listening September 28th, I'm doing, for CE credits being available for folks in Florida, for therapists and helping professionals only, I'm doing a course on understanding age play and adult babies.

But if you're looking for in-person, I'm really excited to be doing two weeks of courses and appearances and samplings and all kinds of other stuff down in Melbourne, australia during the week of Oz Kink Fest and all of the time before.

And if you're in australia, you know what I'm talking about, that about 10 plus days worth of adventure.

Please check out that event if you're looking for in-person stuff.

Thank you so much.

And we will talk again soon.

Take care.

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