Jessica Fern

Non Monogamy, Attachment Styles, and Parts Work

On this episode of the Subspace Exploration Project Todd, Clay, and Ronen spoke with Jessica Fern, psychotherapist and author of Polysecure and co-author of Polywise. From trauma, to neurodivergence, to mental health struggles, Jessica provides amazing insights & guidance on how to understand our attachment styles and negotiate the various types of relationships in our lives.

Jessica’s Website: https://www.jessicafern.com/

Jessica Fern 1 Episode Transcript

This is The Subspace Exploration Project.

A personal journey into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and community building.

On this episode, we spoke with Jessica Fern, psychotherapist and author of Polysecure, and co-author of Polywise.

From trauma to neurodivergence, to mental health struggles, Jessica provides amazing insights and guidance on how to understand our attachment styles and negotiate healthy relationships.

Let's jump into our interview with Jessica.

I am Jessica Fern.

I am a psychotherapist and a clinical trauma professional, and I'm the author of several books now, but Polywise, Polysecure, and the Polysecure workbook.

So Polysecure, Polywise, the Polyworkbook, non-monogamy.

What was your introduction to non-monogamy, and how was your work helping you to understand how you were more or less wired or not wired for non-monogamy and polyamory?

I mean, my introduction came sort of unconsciously, just at 14 years old, kissing a girl and a guy at the same time, and realizing I wasn't straight.

But also, there was no language.

There was language around straightness, and honestly, the word queer wasn't really being used back then, of being bi, and there wasn't language around non-monogamy where I was in that time.

So it was just something that kind of happened, and people did, and then it really became more conscious through actually my clients coming to me, couples coming to me as a psychotherapist, exploring, opening their relationship.

And it was through like needing to quickly figure out how to support them, because at that time, there was also really no training certificates on how to work with clients that were non-monogamous.

So it did, it really helped me see within myself, as I was educating myself for them, how that related to my own sense of just feeling this vast capacity to love more than one person.

That isn't necessarily that everyone feels is wired into them, but for me, it did feel that way.

So there's a lot of your personal journey that pours into your books, of course.

What sort of led you up to actually saying, I'm going to write something about this and I'm going to get some information out there a little bit for everyone?

Yeah, I think some of it was, well, I had this great business coach who said, don't listen to any of the formulas.

As I was trying to build my own practice.

She's like, you don't have to write a blog.

If you don't want to write a blog, don't write it.

She was like, all the formulas are BS.

Do what actually lights you up as an offering to people.

She was like, do you have an offering that you give to the world, but do what you love.

And I was like, yeah, I don't want to write blog posts at all.

I don't want to do videos online necessarily, but I felt a lot of inspiration to give talks.

And so I started to come up with this talk around people transitioning and a talk on attachment and non-monogamy, because these were the challenges that I was really seeing with my clients and sort of wanted to address.

And then as I would do these talks, the audience would raise their hand and say, where's the book?

Where's the book?

Where's the book?

And you start to hear that again and again.

It's like, okay, there's the desire for this.

Right.

Exactly.

So it felt like there was an invitation from the audience literally and metaphorically to say, please give us more.

And then I connected with my publisher and it has taken away since then.

And Polywise, you and David focus a lot on how to process and adapt to paradigm shifts.

Do you find that experienced Poly people or people in general sometimes have a hard time giving themselves permission to grieve those sometimes devastating changes in their various connections?

I do.

I see this as a regular theme that comes up, is grief is there, and people do struggle with giving themselves permission to grieve.

Or one partner just can't help but be grieving, and their partner is really kind of wanting to shut down the grief because they then feel their own shame and guilt.

Yes, but it's such an important part that even if you want this, it's okay to grieve what you are letting go of, or what you're not going to be doing anymore.

Yeah, but it's very common when there's been a longstanding monogamous relationship, especially of grieving what that was and the iteration that it's turning into.

But I think that happens to you along the way just in non-monogamous dynamics through time when there's just transitions in hierarchy, in escalations, de-escalations, nesting, non-nesting, like all of that.

And we can have this unfortunate narrative of not being poly enough if we have feelings about what's happening.

I have watched that paradigm when two people in a relationship are experiencing that, like, okay, we're different.

One of us needs to be monogamous and the other needs poly.

And that acceptance of the paradigm shift is, like, happening.

And they decide that, like, they can't do the relationship anymore because it just doesn't work for them.

I've watched it be so devastating for some people.

And some people give themselves time to grieve, and it works.

And sometimes they want to grieve, like, with the other person, and that person can't.

It's unavailable, and that's really tough.

Yes.

I can actually say with my ex-wife, she was not at all okay with the polyamory coming out.

And she did try, I have to say.

She tried to be there with me, but she just couldn't accept the whole dynamic at all and wouldn't let me grieve.

And kept trying to put rules into place.

And you can go out with this person, but no kissing.

And you can, you know, like trying to control it.

Right.

And so there was that aspect of it as well.

Just not being in control.

Yeah, I think that comes up a lot too.

Is it makes sense to say, okay, can we go at a certain pace just so I can adapt to this, which is very different than I'm going to control your behavior so I don't have to feel uncomfortable about it.

Giving our loved ones that space to process.

For people who are monogamous, new to non-monogamy, can you talk a little bit how that giving of space can be such a supportive thing to do and what that might look like for some people?

Yeah, I think it's, well it is just very important to allow the space for the transition and to honor that each partner has a different pacing at which they process their feelings, at which they come to allow grieving or not grieving, or just make sense of what's happening.

And as I talk about in Polywise, we might have many different inner parts of ourself that are struggling, so that kind of work can take time.

Yeah, and sometimes people need actual space.

I mean, there's many times I'll say go away for a week or stay with someone else for a week or a month, just to have that actual space to find yourself again so that you can come back to the relationship more resourced.

I'm someone who's kind of avoidant and my partner is an anxious attachment, so it's really important for us to like, for me to be vocal about when I'm like, okay, I need space to like process this myself a bit and then I can come back to you.

You know, luckily we like live together, so our space isn't usually that far.

It's more so I just need alone time to not, you know, you know, mull it over and not feel the pressure to be there consistently and support and ask like, oh, I'm sorry, are you okay?

So it's good for her to like regulate and good for me to regulate and then come back to it afterwards.

And that's super tough for her.

And she does better and better at it every single time.

Really lovely to see.

That's great.

And what you're pointing at is right.

Both people need to learn different kind of regulation skills.

Because it is hard for the person who's more anxiously inclined to wait and be patient and have to sit in that discomfort.

Can you explain to us what parts work is?

So parts work, there's many.

I mean, we can even start with just Freud, right?

Talked about these different inner parts of us, instincts of us, then Jung talked about inner archetypal energies.

So I think since sort of the beginning, and I think a lot of this goes back even before the field of psychology, just philosophy, would talk about inner parts.

But now it's a therapeutic modality.

I'm trained in IFS therapy, but there's other forms of it as well, internal family systems.

That's saying as individuals, we have many multiple sub-personalities.

And that's actually healthy.

And we intuitively know this when we say things like, oh, a part of me wants to go, a part of me wants to stay home.

Or when we say, I feel bittersweet, well, that's a part of you that feels frustrated about it and a part of you that feel, or the sadness about something ending, let's say, and then part of you feels the sweetness or the relief about it.

So that's it, but, you know, in our system, it's healthy to have multiple parts.

And in polyamory, we see that, oh, this makes total sense, right?

With one partner, I'm more kind of this way, or it brings out a funnier side of me, or with this partner, it brings out a more philosophical side of me, or a more nurturing side of me.

We can feel that difference.

But then, of course, when we have parts that get into extreme roles, where they are holding traumas or wounds, that's when we're usually needing, you know, a therapeutic intervention to help transform those parts.

So that's where you sort of come in and do your shadow work and do your just deep diving into your own self.

Exactly, exactly.

Well, and it really explains the complexity of our needs and how we respond to things, which, I mean, some people want to believe that there's only one way to respond to this kind of you know, external occurrence or whatever, you know, but I mean, we can have a multitude of responses and to really get into the weeds and figure out how that works is really important.

Only recently in my life am I starting to really grasp the complexity of myself and my responses to what goes on in my life, you know?

Yeah, and I like you emphasizing the needs, that different parts have different needs or different desires, different wants.

Like we just had, this will probably air later, but we had Valentine's Day last week, right?

And I had a part of me that could give a shit about Valentine's Day.

I was like, oh, I'll get a little card from my partner.

I don't really care much.

And then after the fact, there was a part of me that was disappointed I didn't get flowers.

And it was a totally different part that wasn't online, like initially.

And I was like, oh, how interesting, right?

And it's not about making either of these better or worse, right or wrong.

But it was like, okay, that part that wanted flowers needs some attention.

And yet, which part do I want to lead with is also the question here.

Yeah, there's no reason why we have to be like, well, these ones, I don't need to have those wants and needs.

You can find a container to get those needs filled.

Exactly, right.

It's not about getting rid of parts and getting rid of their needs.

It's really about embracing all of our parts, all the sides of ourself, but also knowing not all parts of me get to be in the driver's seat.

At the same time.

Right.

Eventually they all cycle through though.

They can, right.

That's where things can get hard.

Yeah.

How do you go about choosing how to lead with, you know, like, certain parts, like, what's best for right now?

Yeah.

So, in the IFS model in general, it's called self-leadership, that when we imagine all of our parts stepping outside of us, the process of unblending or externalizing, there's still something that is aware and awake that's not a part that we can separate from, right?

It's just our consciousness, our awareness.

And that we want to be in that leadership that self is in the driver's seat more times than not, right?

Or parts of me that have a lot of self-energy.

So, I have a therapist part, right?

That when I'm in session with people, that's who I want to be in leadership.

That part of me has certain skills and things that I've learned and all that kind of stuff.

I don't want my mom part in therapy with my clients, actually.

So, there's the context matters is one, how we choose, right?

It's just what am I doing right now?

And same thing, when I'm with my partner, I don't want to have my therapist part.

That's not going to be good for us if I have my therapy parts or my coaching parts unless he's asking explicitly, let's say, for advice.

So, it's knowing context, you know, knowing which parts are more helpful versus not.

And I find that a lot of our younger parts need to be told, oh, guess what?

You don't have to worry about this at all.

Like, you don't have to be in relationship with it.

I'm the adult here in relationship with my partner.

You don't have to be in relationship with them at all.

Like, that's actually not your job.

Yeah, so a lot of parts need to be told, you know, they've taken on a job early on that made sense for that time and often was necessary to survive, but then they can kind of be unburdened from that role.

You're kind of talking about like when your child, when your child wounds get triggered in whatever relationship you're having with like a partner and it's like, oh, hey, little me, it's okay.

I got this.

We don't have to do what we used to have to do.

Everything's fine this time.

Yes, exactly.

Right.

Or for our younger parts to not be turning towards partners to get their needs met because they can't.

So training our parts to say, I'm the one.

There's actually a self here that can meet your needs, that can listen, that can attune to you.

And you can tap on my shoulder and say you need something.

But please don't turn outwardly to other people to get those needs met because they can't do that.

And I don't want people to think I'm at all saying other people shouldn't meet needs for us.

Of course we do, right?

But that's sort of, you know, the adult parts that are saying which needs we meet for each other.

Well, and I have to admit that I'm a bit of a recovering codependent somewhat recently out of a not super healthy nine-year relationship that was opening, open from the beginning.

We were poly from the beginning.

But it still didn't go well, despite all the communication that we had.

So this podcast is kind of like a documenting the people I meet and the things that I learn in my journey of, you know, my personal, my discovery journey, my healing journey.

And that brings me, part of that is me entering into and learning from the kink and poly queer communities here in Eugene.

I just recently moved back to this area.

And what I'm finding is there's a difference between the poly community, the communication and the openness, and the inclination to create these safe containers in the poly community versus the kink community.

And it wasn't until recently, as I'm learning from my friends and partners, how to create those safe containers for this momentary personal growth or exploration, is that I've really found myself opening up and healing those parts that I thought previously had been healed and taken care of.

But I'm also wondering, are there certain risks to this hyper compartmentalization that occurs, not just in King, but also you kind of refer to some of this in your newest book.

Creating these containers and spaces, is it possible that we, by creating these separate spaces, are we putting ourselves in some kind of disadvantage in processing, or is this absolutely necessary?

Specifically, I'm thinking, I'm referring to kink, because you bring very specific parts of yourself.

Is that a preferred and healthy way to process these, sometimes pretty intense, heavy things?

Yeah, I think it can be, and then often there needs to be integration as well.

So if you're talking about creating a safe space for a kink scene, and there's negotiation and consent, and there's the experience, and there's the aftercare, it's like beautiful.

And then there's after aftercare that usually needs to happen as well, right?

Or aftercare isn't always immediately after the experience.

Yeah, so it's good to have the container that's safe, and then not to just compartmentalize it always to say, okay, what ongoing needs to integrate this experience?

Yeah, I see that similar with in certain psychedelic experiences where people are almost like ceremony chasing, like they keep going to different ceremonies or having these group psychedelic experiences, and they're like blowing their mind out, and they're heart open, and it's incredible, but they're not integrating it into actual, like a developmental shift that's happening, right?

So I think sometimes with kink that can happen too, like we have these transcendent experiences, right?

These erotic explosions that can happen, and then that's great.

But right is that, are you wanting it to be something that's integrated and contributing to sort of the healing of yourself or the evolution of yourself?

Yeah, so I think kind of it's almost like anything can go well, and anything can also be a way to avoid something else.

I'm reminded of my mother recently took shrooms.

Too many of them.

It was her second time, but this time she was doing it differently, because the first time she was on SSRIs, which were messing with her ability to actually trip.

She took mushrooms this time.

She doubled the dose to six grams.

Which was a bit silly.

But she's also dealt with a chronic depression in her life.

And so she was talking about, people are having these experiences on shrooms that are kind of curing their depression.

I want to do that.

And I'm like, yes.

And they're going back to therapy and integrating into their life.

It's not just like you take a shroom and it gets better.

Right.

You have to integrate it into your life.

Yeah.

So, yeah, super important.

I didn't think about, like, you know, psychedelic use is also something that, like, you need the after-after care, but that totally makes sense.

Well, if something changes your way of thinking, then now you have a choice of, like, is this going to affect the way that I think from now on?

And sometimes that's a really good, good thing.

So, like, when you realize something about yourself that you don't like, you're like, well, I can change this.

Yeah, exactly, right.

And I think something like, you know, peak experiences, whether it's through something like kink, whether it's through something like psychedelics, they do, they have a way of making the brain more plastic and opening up new possibilities that didn't exist before.

It's very cool the way it does that, isn't it?

I like coming down from the mountaintop with a new perspective.

Yeah.

Maybe I have a few blisters, but I have a lot of things to think about too.

I'm finding that in discovery of kink, I'm kind of blown away with how it fits with my hardwired non-monogamous self and my neurodivergence.

But it really feels like the level of communication and constant renegotiation of everything in kink specifically forces me to confront my codependent inclinations.

Like in the container of like a BDSM dynamic, I'm forced to have to find healthy ways to figure out what I can carry for someone and what I cannot.

I'm just wondering, do you see a significant overlap between non-monogamy, neurodivergence, and kink?

I'm just amazed by it, and it feels like I should have been here like 20 years ago and exploring these experiences and what this community brings out in me.

Yeah.

And it's kind of sad that it took me this long to get here.

And I think a lot of people share in that kind of sadness of discovering this, something like kink, and it feels like the rose out of stone.

And many people are like, they wish they found it sooner, or they wish they found non-monogamy sooner, or knew about it sooner as an option for them.

But I do see a frequent overlap between all these different things that you mentioned.

And I like what you're getting at, that the...

it's almost like in kink and non-monogamy, the stakes are higher.

Because of what we're playing with, whether it's the emotions of multiple partners or the actual physical emotional safety of someone in a scene or as a play partner, their well-being.

And so we have to negotiate more and communicate more.

The stakes of being codependent and being out of touch with self or trying to appease someone else are dangerous.

Right?

I think it's like that.

That codependency becomes dangerous in a way that it maybe cannot be as dangerous, maybe in a vanilla or monogamous context.

Yes, I really like what you're pointing out there.

And there is a big overlap with neurodivergence in these communities.

And it makes sense to me.

Yeah, it makes sense to me.

I think it's absolutely helped me.

That was one of the more challenging things about coming into the kink community and playing, especially as a submissive, to take away some of those codependent tendencies, to be like, I'm cool with whatever you're cool with.

And that just doesn't work for negotiating kinks, because then what's it for?

So yeah, that was a really tough thing to get through.

But one of the more valuable things that has, I have been able to extrapolate into the rest of the corners and different parts of myself and who I interact with.

And so that's absolutely been an invaluable experience and learning opportunity through kink.

Yeah, if it doesn't exist yet, there needs to be a book that's like kink communication tools for everyone.

Something like that.

Yeah, like kink wisdom for everybody.

We'll put it, we'll send it down the pipeline.

Is there another book in your future?

There is, but that's right.

Maybe, right.

I'll add it to the queue.

What you put out in your writings is immensely helpful for those that are, you know, they have a deep need for this kind of information and they really connect with it.

But I imagine that there has to be some pushback from some people.

I think when I first heard about attachment theory, I was kind of uncomfortable with it because it meant that I had to dig in and understand these things about myself.

There's a lot of very deep work that has to occur.

And sometimes people aren't ready to put in the emotional labor.

But are there anything specific things in either your first book or this most recent one that you've experienced a lot of pushback from, either from monogamous people or Poly community?

Yeah.

I mean, I haven't actually.

And that doesn't mean like if I was to do a second edition of Polysecure, of course, there's things that update, right?

But I haven't been getting actual pushback.

At first, for, you know, from maybe more monogamous culture, people have really seemed to embrace it as a resource, which is amazing.

Yeah.

People reach out and say they're going to put it on the curriculum of their, you know, therapy masters or a college course or something like that.

And some of the mainstream therapists that we know their names, you know, have reached out and said, this book is helping them realize they need to do new versions of their books that are more inclusive.

So it's been great that I haven't been getting hate mail and pushback in that way.

It's pretty incredible.

Yeah.

And yet, and I think then you're also referring to the pushback of just like people might not want to do that kind of inner work.

And it's like, well, yeah, they're not going to reach out to me at all.

They're just not going to show up.

And that's valid.

You know, we have to be ready, because I think you're right.

It's sort of, it's not necessarily easy to do some of this inner work.

And something it's, I'm glad it's something that mono people are looking more into, because just just the self work is important in any relationship, even just friendships and typical, you know, mono style relationships can benefit from.

Yeah, I've been getting that request a lot of they want me to like take part one and part three of Polysecure.

Like, can you just make it a book for everybody?

And can you erase all the polyamory is kind of what you're saying.

Just read the same book.

Right.

That's what makes it for everybody.

Well, exactly.

And I really appreciated my publisher's take on this.

She's like, well, from a financial perspective, if we made another book that was for a general audience, we'd probably do decent, right?

She's like, but from an activist or political perspective, like, we've had to translate all these monogamous or straight books.

And now there's finally a resource that people like, and they want us to make it more comfortable for them.

Like, they can translate, they can learn from this as well.

When there is a second edition of Polysecure, what are some of the addendums or additions that will be in it?

Yeah, one is about neurodivergence.

I think I'd want to, even if it's just a section in a chapter, I'd want to say a little bit more about attachment and neurodivergence and how it can often people who, so people who are neurodivergent still attach, but it can look different.

And it can be mistaken for avoidant attachment, and it's not necessarily avoidant attachment at all.

Or someone, I do address that people with sort of highly sensitive nervous systems or different things going on can experience a disorganized attachment with the world, because your nervous system isn't fitting in with how this current world has been designed.

So I think I just want to elaborate on that more.

And make recommendations for both if you are neurodivergent, how to work with attachment, and if you're partnered with someone who's neurodivergent, how to be more compassionate about their nervous system and not write them off as avoidant.

And I think people want more on primal panic and resources how to work with the experience of primal panic.

Yeah, which is honestly hard to put in a book.

Like it's a very experiential thing, you know, but I think I would, you know, push that edge.

Yeah.

I can't wait for that.

Go, Jessica, go!

Yeah, so that's the running one.

I'm sure with time as I get more feedback too, you know, there was something we actually did change around the definition of ACE that we wanted to be a little bit different.

And it was interesting.

We actually consulted with someone who is an expert and they approved the definition.

And then there was a few people who didn't like the definition we put in.

So we updated that already.

But probably the new, you know, another edition might have another little section on that as well.

I'm curious about that.

I'm a gray ACE and a frasexual.

So you don't hear about those two things very often.

Exactly.

How it also fits into kink and relationships and polyamory.

And because I'm not a romantic, I'm very, very romantic, but just not the other things.

So yeah, that would be something I would definitely be interested in hearing about.

Yeah, right.

Even just a little more mention of it, like aromantic as well, that you can be aromantic and polysexual and that there's this whole combination that's legitimate.

All the terminology.

All the terminology, right, and it evolves.

Absolutely.

And the complexities of people's experience, like at a certain point in my life, I thought I had rejection-sensitive dysphoria.

But it was also at a point where I was still processing a lot of trauma.

And I don't know, maybe that goes hand in hand.

I don't know enough about it.

But I think that would be the easiest way to describe what I was experiencing, like specifically during some terrible breakups that had occurred in my life.

But then also, I've been neurodivergent and masking my entire life.

And during those periods in my life, I was having trouble with drinking or smoking a lot of weed and leaning heavily on that during those breakups.

So there's so much going on.

And it's hard to point to any one thing why I fell apart the way I did.

But it had a huge impact on my ability to cope with these relationships and recover and learn from those experiences, you know, because there was so much going on.

And I didn't yet have the ability to understand all these parts of myself, you know, and those experiences.

Right.

I think you're getting at how growth and healing is so multi-layered.

And there can be many different things that are hindering and contributing that all need to be addressed, and it's overwhelming.

Hard to know where to start.

Yeah, exactly.

And what needs to be addressed first, like getting support sometimes around something like neurodivergence, or I've had like a...

I lived abroad and got mold toxicity from that and then have now a gut issue.

And normally, people would say, let's heal the gut issue.

And I finally found someone who said, you can keep working on that gut issue.

It's not going to heal until you deal with the mold toxicity.

And then it naturally, the body can resolve the secondary issues.

It's like, right, it took a while to get at the root of that.

Someone who understood the layering of all of it.

It's the same thing, yeah, with our emotional and mental health.

Well, it was great having you on.

And in the future, when your next book or second edition of Polysecure comes out, we'll have to give you another call.

Yeah, yeah, my next book is not on non-monogamy.

It's on parts work, on healing the inner critic and shame and the ways we escape.

So that can be a fun conversation.

Yeah, digging into that.

Well, we look forward to it.

Well, thank you all.

It was nice meeting you.

Bye, Jessica.

That was Jessica Fern.

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