Jessica Returns

Neurodivergence, Panic, & Connection w/ Jessica Fern

In this episode of the Subspace Exploration Project Clay & Todd get real and personal with renowned author & therapist Jessica Fern. After Hurricane Helene and the fascist-who-will-not-be-named was reelected, Jessica returns to discuss neurodivergence, jealousy, and the importance of building community in the face of catastrophe.

Jessica’s Website: https://www.jessicafern.com/

Jessica’s First Episode: https://www.subspaceexploration.com/subspacepod/jessica-fern-parts-work

Neurodivergence, Panic, & Connection w/ Jessica Fern Episode Transcript

This is The Subspace Exploration Project.

Join us for a deep dive into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and community building.

In each episode, we're deconstructing the gender binary, celebrating queer culture, and creating a safe space for sex education, all while learning from authors, educators, mental health professionals, and folks like you and me.

Jessica Fern returns.

In this episode of The Subspace Exploration Project, Clay and Todd get real and personal with renowned author and therapist, Jessica Fern.

After Hurricane Helene and the fascist, who will not be named, was re-elected, Jessica returns to discuss neurodivergence, jealousy, and the importance of seeking community in the face of catastrophe.

Let's check it out.

So welcome back.

Hello.

Hi.

It's good to be with you again.

Yeah.

How's everything happening after the hurricane?

How's things out over there?

Yeah, it's mixed.

Yeah.

You know, our immediate home situation is like things that needed to get fixed or fixed.

We're really lucky with that.

We didn't have water and internet and power for 10 days, but there's still people in the city that don't have water, which is really intense.

And there's certain parts of the city that are really picking up again, and some parts are just permanently damaged.

So it's, yeah, you know, it's going to take a while, but it has been really beautiful to see the way that different communities across all lines are really stepping up and helping each other.

Yeah, that's really important right now in the wake of disaster.

Disasters and terrible news.

Community is really important.

Yeah, exactly.

And there's nothing like a natural disaster, I think, to be like, and at the end of the day, we're humans, not, you know, political beings.

So a lot of the identity politics didn't matter in those moments.

And it was nice to see nature make that bridge.

I know it's really important to know your neighbors.

Because when something like that happens, you got to go talk to them and take care of them and they take care of you and share your resources.

Exactly.

There's so many people that weren't even prepared to, like, we didn't even have a bottle of water in our house, like, and we had to introduce ourselves to our neighbors, right?

And then there's other people that are like, you know, we already had this connection, and thank goodness, because we were like, you know, everyone was cooking all of the food together that was melting from the freezer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In light of recent developments and, well, I'd say, real catastrophe and the feeling of impending catastrophe, what kind of advice would you have for people, like, that are just feeling this overwhelm, whether it's, you know, the physical reality or this pressure from the outside, you know, circumstances?

And how we, because I can imagine, some people might default to unhealthy habits, you know?

Yeah.

And, of course, we have to continue to be healthy in the way we treat ourselves and the people we are in relationships with.

And yeah, what kind of advice might you have for navigating this very real, very heavy pressure, external pressure?

Yeah, similar to what I said with the hurricane, like it's mixed, right?

This is overwhelming.

It is overwhelming.

And to acknowledge and allow that reality, right?

And then it's like teasing apart what's actually happening and the fear of what is to happen.

There's a lot of what we think could happen or what is even said will happen.

And many of those things might happen and many of the muscles won't, and we don't know.

Right?

So that was one thing to make that parallel is like, there's a hurricane coming and there's so many things that can happen, and there's so many things that did.

And we just had to respond to what actually happened.

The tree did fall here and it didn't fall over here.

Like this road is literally gone and washed away and this one isn't.

So there's something important about acknowledging the fear, and then also staying centered enough in self to say what's true and actually happening today, and not go too much into the future tripping.

And I think another piece is all of us finding like where do I contribute even in the smallest way?

And I'm just seeing such a variety of how people are choosing to do that, but it seems like a really important piece.

You know, like for some people, it is more about activism and getting involved politically.

For some people, it's not, but they're saying, you know what?

I'm going to start this blog.

Like this the last few weeks, here's the things I've heard, right?

I'm going to start that blog I never started.

I'm going to start this group for this particular marginalized people online that like will become a safe haven for them.

Someone thinks that their way of responding is to no longer be silent at work around their non-binary identity and to be transparent about their pronouns.

Yeah.

Right?

So all of these things can be like, yeah, find the way that you orient to how to make meaning and find purpose in them.

I think there's a lot of sharpening our teeth, like, all right, I'm ready to fight now.

And it's like, we don't necessarily have to be sharpening our teeth.

Right.

But it certainly does help make us feel safer, you know, like.

If we sharpen our teeth, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think the thing that makes, just to speak simply, it makes me sad, right?

You know, when people are very hurt by the othering and the atrocities that other people are doing, but then they themselves go into the othering and the demonizing, and the same thing that they are alerting against, right?

As a problem, they are falling into that pattern.

This is like, how do we not other and demonize?

Yeah.

Right?

In the name of other people who are othering and demonizing.

And yet not become complacent either, because it's not about just passively accepting things.

A lot of compassion and curiosity for other people and why they might do the things that they do.

Yeah.

Think the way they think.

Before all of this came about, the reason why I reached out and I wanted to talk with you again, check in on upcoming projects and reissues.

But also, I wanted to talk specifically about neurodivergence.

But also, I had a question, and I actually wonder how this shows up now with these more intense pressures too.

What is primal attachment panic?

So, primal attachment panic, I wrote about it in PolySecure.

And it is when the nervous system goes into the threat of panic, threat response of actual death, when we lose connection or access to our attachment figure.

They're unavailable, I can't reach them, they're not responding to me, and that means, because I'm a baby and I can't do anything for myself yet, I am going to die.

And it's actually a wise response to get bigger and louder, to get the care and survival needs met.

Right?

So as adults, we're not necessarily, our survival isn't necessarily dependent on our partners or our attachment figures, but our body doesn't always know that.

So when we feel a disconnection from them, when they're unreachable or they're not responding to me, the body can still go into this big, sympathetic nervous system response of threat and I'm going to die.

I suppose we kind of do that in a lot of different contexts.

And I'm thinking specifically like when things don't go your way politically and your survival feels threatened or your comfort feels threatened, and you go into this like, I'm going to flip the table upside down and like, someone listen to me.

Yeah, right.

And like lashing out or whatever it is.

Yeah.

So some of these things are not just physical, it can be the existential threats to our future or to our identity, that also activate the same, I am unsafe in this world.

And it's not that it's wrong, right?

There is, there's unsafety that's happening, but right, it's a big nervous system response.

That can be scary, it can be confusing.

A lot of people are experiencing that primal panic right now.

Yeah.

Do you think that, like with primal attachment panic, do you think that that might show up differently for those with like different attachment styles or across being neurotypical or neurodivergent?

Absolutely to both.

Yeah, okay.

Yes, yes.

So people that tend to have more of the anxious preoccupied style or that end of the spectrum, you're going to see it sooner, and probably more obviously, but people like someone with a more withdrawn style, if they get pushed far enough, they will have it as well.

But you might see the meltdowns more upfront with someone who tends to lean more towards the anxious preoccupied end of that spectrum, right?

With neurodiversion, it's like there can be so many things that are contributing, that sometimes it can seem like the fuse is shorter.

And it's not that the fuse is shorter, it's just that there's so many more things that have been stimulating, right?

So a nervous system that's more stimulating, it's like the noise here, the smell here, what you said over there, my inner critic going over here, it's like all of this is happening, right?

You're resonating.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, for me, neurodivergence is like, it's so many things, but it's also a spectrum of brilliance and a spectrum of sensitivity.

More attuned often to the environment, sometimes at our own expense.

So, right, people's nervous systems are having these big flare-ups because the environment is not safe for me.

It's too chaotic.

It's not necessarily the attachment figure, but then the attachment figure can do the smallest thing, and it just pushes someone over their own thresholds.

I feel like with the more anxious attachment styles, you're seeing that much more quickly and obviously, and with me who's a bit more avoidant or withdrawn is like, you're not going to see it until I've really reached the threshold, and then it's very obvious that I've reached the limit.

Yeah, or it might implode, right?

It doesn't necessarily explode, it implodes, and it can be so confusing, I think, for if you're partnered with someone who's in the more avoidant withdrawn style or a certain types of neurodivergence, it's like, no, a lot's going on in here, but it doesn't come out.

And if you could be mistaken, I think that's what happens with certain neurodivergence, you're mistaken for not having thoughts or feelings or caring, and that is not true at all.

It's like, no, it's all contained and ping-ponging in here.

Because I don't let it actually go out, right?

It's very internal.

It's very internal, yeah.

I wanted to address, because I see it very much in my life, showing up in my connections as both a positive and a negative, and always here, you factor in technology.

I just had trouble hearing you said technology.

Yeah.

Technology, you factor that in as something that can both restrict and facilitate connection.

And I can definitely see how for certain, especially for certain neurodivergent people, especially with social anxiety, that is just maybe a preferred way to engage day-to-day.

But of course, that can hinder that deeper connection.

I'm wondering, can you help explain what the primary pros and cons of technology as in modes of communication, maintaining connection are?

Yeah, I think, well, it allows people that maybe couldn't access each other to be in relationship.

Especially certain people that are isolated physically where they are, they don't have people that share their identities or their lifestyle.

And wow, I can connect with people across the globe that understand me.

Like that is significant.

Right?

So there can be this access to community that wasn't accessible.

Right?

Or there can be like long distance.

You know, I have a partner, we're an hour and 20 minutes away and we're with each other half the week.

Well, those other days, we're not together.

Thank goodness for our texts and voice memos that we can send and ways of checking in with each other that kind of keep the connection going.

But it can't be a supplement for the connection.

Right?

So thinking of like, oh, it's an enhancement to the connection or a support to the connection, but not a supplement to actually having in-person human connection with each other.

Right?

So it can become a hinderance when we can't have in-person conversation, right?

Or I can only share my intimate feelings about you through these means and not actually in-person.

Right?

That's when it goes, okay, there needs to be some support here so that in-person, you can share your feelings, you can share your affection, right?

That you do feel connection.

What would that support look like?

I mean, I guess it could look like a ton of different things.

Yeah.

I mean, it depends, I think, on the dynamic, the pairing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess that's just a conversation for y'all to have, if you're needing more support to talk about some intimate and vulnerable feelings that you're not able to in-person, that you find easier to do with technology because it's less, well, the nice thing about technology is it can slow things down, right?

So if I don't, I'm feeling a lot, and there's really something that helps to calm it down, if I'm putting it into words, to get my thoughts out, to get my feelings straight, and to speak it in a respectful, clear, kind way, right?

That's one benefit, right?

So in that case, it's like, okay, what do you need in person with someone to feel like there's enough slowing down for your, like, so you do have space, and someone's not just jumping in, right?

Yeah.

One of the challenges, though, is we can miss it, like, there's so many times where I'm like, that conversation you're describing to me should never have been over text.

You know, where it's like, well, this is a very important conversation, and it's quickly getting misunderstood because it's happening through text, and these spin-outs that happen, it just escalates so quickly because it's like, no, that's an in-person or on-the-phone voice conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you're right.

It's like, it can work in both ways.

It's easy to fall victim to that and go, oops, I should not have started this over to X.

Right.

Right.

I know for me, there's been times where I was having big feelings, even if it was just stressed out or whatever.

And I start to compose something, and I'm like, oh, you know what?

This needs a second draft.

Yeah.

And a third draft.

And while it was good to be able to start to work through my feelings on whatever it was, also that's maybe an indicator that might need to be a face-to-face conversation, because at the very least, text, you can't read someone's tone, you can't read their body language.

And if it's that important, you need those things, you need those cues.

Yeah, exactly.

Cues and tone and the importance of prosody like the way our voice is, it's so important in signaling safety.

And so often we can read a text from someone and we impose an unsafe tone on it.

And it will, we're activated.

Adrenaline just got released.

When it's like, oh, the same thing can be said softly and it means something completely different.

Yeah.

And just the ability to look each other in the eyes or put your hands on each other, it makes such a difference.

I think there have been times where like the unsafety or the difficulty that I feel expressing something that I'm like not sure about or feeling very vulnerable with this other person.

Sometimes I will like scrub a lot of those cues from our face-to-face conversation.

So as to try to make it like, this is what I've thought about and here's what I am saying and how I feel.

And it again like really messes with trying to have that vulnerable conversation that doesn't activate the other person because you're like, I'm like putting on this sanitized almost like therapeutical speak.

I'll perfectly present this to you.

Lovely package.

And that does not work either.

I have learned through trial and error.

Right.

Because it comes off as what, too disconnected or not like, not genuine enough.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

That has landed me in trouble a couple of times.

And that comes from a fear of just that conflict on maybe that topic.

Yeah.

I think, I don't know, it could come from a lot.

This isn't about me, but.

I think what we're getting into is helpful.

Oh, totally.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like a fear of conflict.

It's a fear of compromising my own feelings when I start to get vulnerable and I see how it's affecting somebody else.

I start to be like, I'll backpedal and I'll be like, it actually doesn't matter because I don't want you to feel upset about this, you know, like.

Yeah.

And so to go in with like, I am this is what I've thought about when you're not in front of me.

And this is how I'm thinking and I'm not going to make eye contact because if I do, I will start to feel bad and I'll backpedal.

Yeah.

So that, yeah, the fear of conflict, of hurting the other person, of saying the wrong thing.

And, you know, I had, I ended a very vulnerable conversation with one of my partners.

And because she had kind of like shut down.

And I was like, I don't know what else to do here.

And she would, we just decided to like part for them and just kind of like think about it.

And then she came outside with like red in her face, tears in her eyes like, and actually I do have thoughts now.

Stop talking to me like that, as if you have everything thought out.

Can you just say what's on your mind, whether you're angry or upset or not, because I know you and that you won't be out to get me or hurt me.

So just be emotional and upset and we will come back to it, to another conversation and work that out.

But don't sanitize this because it makes me feel like this fragile, like vulnerable thing that can't possibly take all the thoughts on your mind that you have, that you're bestowing upon me.

And I'm like, hey, that makes a fuck ton of sense.

And I feel very connected to you now.

I mean, it sounds like you were given permission to be messy.

Yes.

And right.

If we can be messy and imperfect without like crossing the line into being shitty.

Like there is, those are two different things.

And we often, they were experienced as one previously, right?

Yes.

How great that is.

It was fantastic.

I was so pleased.

And there's something important there too, of this like over caretaking of our partners, like not wanting them to feel a certain way.

Like we can't control that.

No.

I mean, of course, don't say things you know that will hurt them one to hurt them.

But there's just, yeah, if I'm having thoughts and feelings, there's consequences and my partner might have their own thoughts and feelings and it's like micromanaging of their experience.

It's like pull it in.

Yeah.

It has caused a couple issues.

But just after that one conversation of like, stop doing this.

I see what's happening now.

Like you say, I get to be messy, but then you don't allow yourself to be messy.

And it's not fair to me.

And I was like, wow, I'm like, turned on.

Right.

And we didn't shift things.

Were you allowing yourself to be work free?

There hasn't been anything huge to work through.

We were kind of working through a de-escalation of our relationship, or just a change in things.

And I wasn't sure what I needed.

And so I was so afraid to change this relationship that I did a lot of sanitizing on how to do it.

And that just like, she was like, don't ever do that again.

You can change your relationship, it can happen.

Don't do it like that ever again.

Well, it kind of sounds like when you, for that first part of the conversation, you kind of didn't show up completely.

No.

Yeah.

I wasn't there in my feelings about it, and unsurety.

I was reading off of something that I wrote.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is not it.

I mean, she's done that to me, but it's more so like, hey, I've actually had some feelings on my mind for a while, and I don't know how to bring them up without making sure I still have a thing that I say.

It has to be organic conversations.

Yeah.

After you've been like, all right, and this is the thing that I've been meaning to say for a while, I'm reading off this paper.

But then everything after that needs to be like, not from a paper, not-

Authentic engagement and reflection on those bullet points.

If anything, start with some bullet points that you maybe took some notes from, but then actually engage with each other from there.

Yeah.

But what you're describing for some people is such an important first step, like who can't even get it out.

So it's like, yes, write it down and read it is actually a fantastic step.

So just being able to do that in person.

Yes.

But then I think what you're getting at is we don't stop there, like eventually, and it might not be in that conversation, but eventually, can we have more of a back and forth?

Can it come out more fluidly without the prop of the paper?

But for some people, I even say write it down and read it, because that's going to get you to be in the conversation versus not at all.

That's great.

That's exactly what happened.

Yeah.

Good.

It worked, right?

Yeah, it did.

In whatever kinds of connections they are, between neurodivergent folks and neurotypical people, sometimes we trip over ourselves trying to understand how to translate for the other, what's going on.

There's a lot of misunderstandings.

I have a pretty disorganized attachment style, but I've had neurotypical partners that have been...

They don't understand how I see certain things as romantic, and I don't necessarily respond to traditionally romantic things in the same way they would.

And I've been called avoidant by more than one partner before, and I don't think I'm usually very avoidant.

I just communicate differently, I respond differently.

But that's something that you brought up in our last talk, which is that neurodivergent people's attachment styles can be misidentified, especially as avoidant.

Exactly.

And I was wondering if you could go into that a little bit.

Yeah.

I mean, I think you're nailing it, right?

That I think what you're saying is that some of your behaviors don't actually feel like it's your attachment style.

It's more about how you're wired, and then it's being interpreted as if it's your attachment style.

And that's sort of what, yeah, can this misidentification that can happen, misinterpretation of a partner's behaviors.

So instead of asking you, what is romantic to you?

What do you experience as romantic?

How do you experience romance?

Here's what I experience as romantic.

Like, how do we line up on that?

Or how can we meet those needs differently in each other?

Instead of just assume as if romantic is one solid thing and it is or isn't, right?

Yeah.

So there's a lot of assumptions that go into some of these things, like what is romance?

What is sex?

And then if my partner is not meeting it, though, then they're avoidant.

Yeah.

But, you know, just not understanding the way that this different wiring of the nervous system is a huge part of that.

Gets me thinking about, like, the times men have, like, brought out their guitar and, like, sang to me.

And I'm like, I do not find this romantic.

I'm very unlovable.

Please put that shit away.

I appreciate it, but not me.

Right.

It's like in the Barbie movie, all the Kens on the beach.

And I will.

Right.

Exactly.

And all of them are like, this, this isn't it for me.

Yeah.

You got to really love your partner and be like, that's so nice.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I think this is, I've had so many conversations with people, you know, personally or then professionally with clients or someone complaining about romance.

I'm like, what is it even?

And then people have trouble identifying and actually articulating like, what is romance anyway?

There have been plenty of like, perverted things that we find romantic, that like vanilla people or perhaps kinky people of other flavors are not finding that to be their type of romance.

Yeah.

And then the traditional romance is just like something that I reserve for my friends, honestly.

I'm very romantic with my friends, but then I get pervertedly romantic with my partner, with my sexual partners.

I like that.

That's right.

Yeah.

Good to know, right?

Yeah.

That has been a big key in trying to parse out different relationships that I have with people, because I'll get confused because I'm like, I want to be so romantic with you and I want to hold your hand, and I want to take you out for dinner.

But you're my best friend in the whole entire world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't want to take you on a sunset picnic.

But I do not want to poke holes in your skin and play around with the blood.

Yeah.

You're getting at something so important.

Sometimes these things overlap or one is the doorway to the other.

That for some people, romance is the doorway into eroticism and sensual sexuality.

And for some people, it's like not at all.

It's just romance.

And that can be this platonic romance, right?

Or it can be a non-platonic, but it doesn't necessarily turn you on sexually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that as well with neurodivergence, we're going to see such variety.

I think the thing I sometimes see with neurodivergence is this dopamine chasing that can get complicated.

It's problematic where there's dopamine chasing.

So it's like chasing romance or chasing certain sexual experiences or needing, like I need more hits of this.

You're not giving me my dopamine hit.

So therefore, you're avoidant or our relationship isn't what I want.

It can be too big of a conclusion about each other.

So like, what is romance and also what is kind of dopamine fixes?

So many neurodivergent people are like the sensation seekers when they are kinksters and they just like, they need the sensation stimulation and those dopamine hits that they're chasing.

And a lot of times, it's not even like a sexual thing for their kinkiness.

It's just sensation seeking and connection, you know?

Yeah.

And I don't want it to be pathologized either, right?

No, no.

Right?

And I'm not saying you are, but you know, it's just like, yeah, I don't want it to be because I see, oh, sometimes it's this necessary, like, outlet and off-gassing that the nervous system needs in those kinds of, you know, sensory seeking moments that are safe and consensual and contained.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Imagine replacing your disposable vape with a quick whipping session, you know?

The world would go round.

I don't think that's how it works, but...

It's a good ad, though.

Yeah.

We'll help you quit nicotine.

Yeah.

Sensation seeker.

Very real.

Yeah.

But it's important in a neuro...

like, in relationship with one's self, that's neurodivergent, or with a partner that's neurodivergent, to be teasing these things apart.

Are there, like, specific ways that you can do that to, like, tease them apart, other than, obviously, communication and curiosity, and what is making them tick and respond to things.

Exactly, exactly.

Just, like, playing detective in a good way with one's self.

Like, okay, what's going on here for me?

Is it this?

Is it that?

Is it this?

No.

And then being able to communicate that.

Being able to make requests based on, yeah, I'm needing this thing right now.

I am needing, actually, a sensation-seeking or stimulation in a certain way versus something else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that, yeah, curiosity with communication.

You're very good at putting me under a microscope.

You're very good at observing and teasing those things out.

So good for you.

Yeah.

It is, it's really cool to watch him, to watch the cogs tick in his head.

Like, I've never seen someone so invested to, like, a specimen underneath a microscope.

And so I think for some people, that can feel like a negative type of objectification and it doesn't work for them.

But it works for me to feel like, so intensely observed, like, machinery that you're trying to get to work with.

Well, a lot of the things we're getting to, they're usually wrapped up in some degree of, or for a lot of people, usually, some shame and embarrassment that usually makes it difficult for them to communicate these things.

Right.

And you already knows those things are there, and you're like, let's work past that.

I'm like, yes, we will.

Yeah.

And that's so interesting based on what you said before, like, oh, a partner that was truly avoidant wouldn't actually be tuning in to those things.

Most likely wouldn't be noticing those things.

Yeah, yeah.

I have a partner that has ADHD, and I've never had someone reflect back to me details about myself.

Even just like, it's incredible.

Yeah, like, you know, I miss the sound of your slippers across the hardwood floor, right?

Like, and it's like to him, it's this intimacy, right?

And I'm like, I know you, and I know the way this sounds about you from across the house, and I know the way this is.

And I'm like, wow, I am known on a level that I've never experienced in that way.

Yeah, and it's such a gift.

I can feel my chest expanding.

I really, really resonate with that.

There are so many things that I notice about people that I explain to them, and they're like, you know that?

And I'm like, yes, I know this, of course.

Yeah.

I've had partners that get upset that I'm paying that kind of attention to them.

Yeah.

And I'm like baffled.

I'm like, sorry, you fascinate me.

I appreciate you.

What's wrong with that?

Exactly.

Right.

I'm paying attention.

I think, like with one of my avoidant partners, she can find that to be very endearing sometimes.

And other times, it can lead to her feeling like too over-examined and like watched, and it makes her feel too uncomfortable to exist for fear of being observed.

Right.

Feeling too observed and like the spotlight is on.

Yeah.

So sometimes I got to learn to like manually like turn it off and be like, stop observing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you know, people that have had the avoidant, usually style, there's a history of being criticized in their past.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so it can activate that like the shame, the healthy shame response, it's like, oh, this isn't good, I have to like hide this about myself, right?

Because it might like to be seen can be dangerous.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so here we have someone who's like lovingly seeing us, they can activate the same, I need to turn away.

It can be pretty imperative to, if I am expressing, if I'm identifying these observations to her, to accompany them with, and I love this about you.

I love, this is what I love.

It makes me think of all these things or something about my family and the women that, older women in my life that raised me or cared for me or loved me.

And that's why I love that about you.

And that kind of like pairs it with like, oh, okay, I can love that about myself too.

If that's how you see it.

Yeah.

Because if they're going to, if their instinct is to depending on their mood, maybe default to you are maybe being critical.

You have to let them know, no, this is out of love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Similarly, it's like if you have a partner that's neurodivergent, I really recommend reading about that type of neurodivergent.

Working with a couple, I've been working with them for maybe two years, and one of her complaints is that he doesn't do eye contact, specifically when they're having sex.

And then she realized they both come to the realization that he's pretty much on the spectrum, and that now, him not making eye contact was put into a context that made sense and wasn't personal.

It wasn't this rejection.

It wasn't that she was unattractive.

So that feels like an important piece to emphasize as well, that things that are going on for someone, their behaviors have nothing to do with you most of the time, but they're interpreted as being usually rejecting or too much or personalized.

Speaking of spectrums, understanding jealousy as being on a spectrum, or at least I've heard a number of people speak to jealousy being on the spectrum from saying, say being like having a primal attachment panic to compersion.

And it didn't even occur to me that compersion, which I've experienced before, is actually part of that equation of processing, of processing jealousy, or upset over perceived threat to, you know, the attachment.

But I just find that fascinating, and it does make sense, you know, the more I've experienced it.

Yeah, and that they can coexist.

We can feel compersion as well as jealous at the same time.

That it's not one or the other.

And usually, I think of it more in parts.

One part of me feels a lot of compersion, and another part of me is freaking out, you know, and is pretty jealous or pretty angry or, you know, just this jealousy, whatever it is, or having an insecure attachment panic.

And you're able to hold both of those wolves inside of you.

Yeah, exactly.

You're allowed to.

Right, right.

And sometimes we do have to say, okay, I have to put this one aside and focus solely on this one right now.

That's like, you know, put the fire out right now.

But yeah, a lot of people judge themselves as not having compersion because they feel jealous or their partners, which is worse, they weaponize compersion.

Really?

Let's rethink this one.

Weaponizing compersion.

Poly people, stop this shit.

They're inventing new ways to be abusive.

I mean, we do this with most things.

When I was first studying NVC, nonviolent communication, maybe 20 years ago, I couldn't believe how many people would weaponize it.

Like, you're not doing NVC.

It's a really un-NVC statement.

Yeah.

People who want to be abusive are going to be abusive, and some of them are going to learn the words, the terminology, the slang to throw around to make it veiled as, not abusive, I'm doing therapy talk.

This is the words that you know.

Well, I don't think that they necessarily want to be abusive, but it's like a lot of these things are not, I call it the difference between a horizontal shift versus vertical.

Ideally, we learn this new concept or tool, and it's actually a vertical shift in our consciousness.

It's like, oh, I'm seeing things differently and more broadly than before.

My worldview is changing, and so I have more capacity, but a lot of times it's like, oh, your level of consciousness didn't change.

It's just you changed your clothes.

You're just using a different language now that sounds more, as if it's more advanced or more inclusive, but not necessarily.

Yeah.

Thank you for joining us again.

This was a wonderful talk.

We'll definitely have to catch up again while I have time.

You have your third, the next one.

My next book, yeah, coming out in 2025, I think around August or in the fall.

So it would be nice to reconnect then when, yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

All about the inner critic and shame and the ways we escape.

So, yeah, we all love it.

Yeah.

We look forward to it.

Yeah.

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