Lee Harrington
Affirmation, Healing, and Trust
Todd, Clay, and Ronen had a chance to talk kink and healing with Author, Educator, and Kinkster Lee Harrington. We wade into the deep end with with Lee about Spiritual, Mental, and Emotional Exploration and Healing through Kink. From Butt Bondage to Age Play, Mental Health Challenges to Gender Affirmation, cleaning up messes for the ones we love without saying a word or playfully humiliating them, are all ways we manage to make this world easier to navigate.
Social Media Links:
Website: http://www.PassionAndSoul.com
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/passionandsoul/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passionandsoul/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@passionandsoul
Fetlife: https://fetlife.com/users/24336
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.harringon
Classes Mentioned:
Crotch Ropes & Butt Bondage (2/5/24 Online): https://forbiddentickets.com/events/wicked-grounds/2024-02-05-online-crotch-rope-and-butt-bondage
Patreon Salon (2/11/24 Online): https://www.patreon.com/passionandsoul/
From Gender Dysphoria to Gender Euphoria (3/23/24 Online): https://forbiddentickets.com/events/wicked-grounds/a99917cc9
Delving Into Power 3-Day Power Exchange Intensive (5/10/24-5/12/24 Online): https://forbiddentickets.com/events/passionandsoul-presents/66affc047c
Dark Roleplaying (4/12/24-4/14/24 at Grand Fetish Affair in Cincinnati, O hio): https://www.grandfetishaffair.com/
ALL Upcoming Events: https://www.passionandsoul.com/events
Non-Lee Resources Mentioned:
THRIVE BDSM and Mental Health Conference: https://thrivevirtualcon.com
Wicked Grounds: https://wickedgrounds.com
Karada House: https://karada-house.de
As You Like It: https://asyoulikeitshop.com/
Books Mentioned:
The Toybag Guide to Age Play by Lee Harrington: https://a.co/d/3QU01bL
Sacred Kink: The Eightfold Paths of BDSM and Beyond by Lee Harrington: https://a.co/d/emK3HIW
Shibari You Can Use: Japanese Rope Bondage and Erotic Macramé (features butt bondage and strap-on): https://a.co/d/bLqv174
Lee Harrington Episode Transcript
Ronen:
Welcome to the Subspace Exploration Project. A Personal Journey into Kink, Non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression and building Community.
Clay:
On this episode, we had a chance to talk with Lee Harrington, who is a spiritual and erotic authenticity educator, gender explorer, eclectic artist and award winning author and editor on erotic and sacred experiences.
Ronen:
It was amazing to get a chance to talk with Lee about exploring ways of being our authentic selves while doing what we can to build and maintain our communities.
Clay:
Before we get to our interview with Lee, let's quickly introduce ourselves.
Todd:
My name is Todd, and I put this message together. So this show is a bit of a continuation of a podcast I produced back in 2011, co-hosted by Janet Hardy, Jenée Wilde, and Sarah Black. That show had a very similar focus, but relied mostly on the experiences and expertise of big name guests.
The Subspace Exploration Project is, to a certain extent, something that parallels my own exploration of kink, sex, non-monogamy, gender expression and discoveries I'm making in my attachment style, how my mental health and neurodivergence intersect and shape all the different ways I connect with and honor the people in my life. I think the least interesting thing about this show is myself.
I'm a white presenting, gender non-conforming older guy. 15 years into embracing non-monogamy, finally jumping into the deep end of the kink community. Why I thought this show needed to happen is because of the brilliant, beautiful, loving and open people I've met in the kink and queer communities over this last year or so. They shined so brightly despite the terrible, undeniable state of the world. So for me, this show is about meeting those people, hearing about their life experiences and sharing in moments of self-reflection and discovery.
Clay:
I suppose I'm the resident Gen Z here. So I'm somewhat of at a beginning in my journey of self-discovery. And the queer, kinky trans community has been integral in that journey of self understanding. I think media like this podcast is an extention of that community, and sharing our experiences is an opportunity for us to learn from one another, young and old.
Ronen:
And I myself as someone who struggles with neurodivergent and trauma. Kink has become a safe and healthy place for me to explore my emotions and face head on my inner challenges. I'd like to address the stigma associated with kink and show others that there's peace and healing and joy to be had within.
Todd:
Can you tell us a bit about the role of spirituality and how it has guided your journey of self-discovery?
Lee:
Yeah, I was blessed/threw challenges raised in a mixed religious household. My parents, instead of arguing about it, I mean, they did that too, but instead they made a decision that I should go every everywhere and everything.
I should go to mosque and synagogue. Org, I should go to temple and church. And there were places that tasted alive that felt real in my skin and ones that didn’t. And when I first started playing privately as a teen, I had those moments as well. But I remember the first time I went to a public play party and I was a big titted chick at the time and got picked up by some random heterosexual man whose name I don't remember, and he ended doing a flogging scene on me,. A flogging scene with me.
And I had this moment where it felt the same way. It felt when I had ecstatic moments in faith, when I had ecstatic moments that were transcendent of time where time folded in on itself and the world was sparkling and not the same. And it felt like touching the universe. That it was something more than what it was.
And afterwards, I remember turning to him and saying ““My God, that was the most transcendent, beautiful, powerful, spiritual moment.” And his response was, “But it was just a flogging.” And it very much set this path for trying to figure out not just how I chase that thing, because as somebody with Dances with Addiction, that is not necessarily the path I want to follow, but finding those moments of being able to tap in and that very much has informed who I connect with in Kink communities.
Right? Who else is exploring in those ways rather than only being rope vending machines? Who is doing these things that wants to connect on a bigger level or have these other conversations? Not deeper. Because the tech side and the getting off side can be huge and beautiful conversations, totally hot. But this other piece as well, and then also looking for and finding groups around the world that were diving into these things too. So that's been part of my last twenty five year. Actually started privately 30 years ago. So yeah, it's it's wild but, but it's been an interesting and fun ride at times.
Clay:
Now, your parents made you go to a lot of different places. Was that…? I was raised Unitarian Universalist and so when we went to U U church, that was kind of like they would bring in a lot of different teachings from a lot of different religions, which is something that me and my family greatly appreciated because there is so much to take away from everybody and what their practices have to offer me.
So that's really that's interesting. I get the like, wow, everybody has their own flavor that is like so very palpable to me. And you know, finding that in thinking in sex is a really nice refuge for when you've, at least for someone who has kind of abandoned religion and spirituality to find that taste again. And with this conversation that you bring to it, with like how to translate ideas from a spirituality to how you're experiencing the world with your own kind of idea set and values.
Lee:
Yeah, I feel there can be unexpected blessings that come out of those dark moments of discordance in life. For them, it was that they were on such profoundly different paths and shouldn't, in my opinion, have ever been together in the first place, but stuck together for a long, many years past what was a good fit for the two of them?
And, and the shame that comes out of it. The the beauty is getting to have those requests, callings, moments that wouldn't have happened otherwise. And I've had people think of me as a Pollyanna at times, but it's also me choosing to live in the hopes of moments without forgetting the toxicity and horribleness of those moments. I'm not going to set aside the really dark things that happened, but I don't need to live in them all the time.
Like, yes, I've been an abusive master slave dynamics on the S side. Yes, I've been in really toxic scenes that have left me physically harmed or emotionally harmed for extended periods of time. And my desire for human connection and my desire for pleasure and hedonism asks me, what can you find out of these life experiences that have beauty and hope and joy embedded in them? But also not forget that shit.
Ronen:
Yeah, right. That's something I was interested to hear you talk about because my experience with religion was, I was abused by it. And so finding those moments where it feels real to me is very rare. And kink is one of the places that I did happen to find that sort of space. And being vulnerable is a huge one. Being able to be vulnerable, feeling safe enough to be vulnerable. And bringing it all back to just that experience that I would have never thought of it as spiritual necessarily, but that's as close as I would get.
Lee:
Yeah, well, and the words sometimes get in the way of our experiences. When the word spiritual has been co-opted by the construct of religion or dogma, it doesn't always leave space for those of us like yourself, Ronen, who have been so profoundly harmed by dramatic dogmatic structures and religious organizations and systems.
And so some of us go hunting for other words like subspace. Or ropespace. Or domspace. Because that word space gives permission for the spaces outside of normal time and place.
Yeah. That word space is so powerful, but sometimes gets given almost this lip service, especially for Tops, Dominants and Owners, etc.. Like again, it gets given this like, you know, “Well, no it's for sub. Subs go into this.” And I'm like, “Well, but what about those moments when I as a top or a daddy or a handler, have the world melt away and all there is is my partners eyes as they hand that trust me and I trust myself
to be that vessel that can hold them and me safely and nothing else matters?”
I've been in play spaces in dungeons where people are like, did you hear so-and-so screaming? That was such a hot scene. And I'm like, What? What are you talking about? Because all that mattered in that moment was me and the rope and my breath and feeling my partner tug on that line. But the rest was superfluous. The rest did not matter. And it's not to say other humans don't matter. It is simply to say what was present and beautiful is I think that word spirit that for some of us like yourself, has this toxicness attached to it. And I wish it didn't.
Ronen:
Right. So it's something personally been working on not attaching it to so much. But and I think that Doms and you know, people that are dominant, I think they get into a space as well where they're, like you were talking about they're also vulnerable and people don't think them to be vulnerable. But they definitely are by putting themselves, like you said, in the trust of someone else to to be that space for them.
Lee:
When we talk about that, that that vulnerability of whatever the left side of the slash is right? If we've got top, bottom, dom, sub... Anyone on the left side of slash. I think though when thinking about altered states of consciousness, I think of a friend of mine who was asked to do a race play scene by one of their dearest and oldest friends. And they said No. As they were, but a black person asking to a white man.
And he was like, No, I don't want to be that villain. I don't want to tap into that. I don't, that harm in culture or and in personal like, I don't think he said familial lineage, but that concept. That holds no interest, and actually I love you. I care about you my friend, and No. And over the course of a couple of years they've negotiated and decided to do a large group scene.
And in the middle of it, he had a moment where he snapped out of this role playing headspace that had been distinctly negotiated, by the bottom, requested by the bottom, initiated by the bottom, who was black. And he snapped out of that mid scene and realized the things that were coming out of his mouth were the things his grandfather said. That were horrible and cruel and wrong. And he he couldn't. He couldn't keep going. The rest of the scene did finish. It was a large group scene, etc..
But it's years later and C is still processing because of his moment of vulnerability. In the middle of an intense scene, he is still processing this moment of is that toxicness, is that intergenerational trauma as the villain? Is that still in my family line? Is that is that in my body? In which case, what is the massive work I can do in anti-racism to hack my own psyche to never have that happen again where I realize, “Oh shit! That's there.” And and for folks I know in general who in roleplaying play the villain, facing where is the parts of my desire for that in combination with what parts of me need, need the love and attention to not go there again.
Clay:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Lee:
And it's something I think of. It's something I think about a lot is that experience of has because it's it's not the exact story I've lived in my scenes. But it reminds me of that intersection of vulnerability and intense exploration.
Ronen:
Yeah. You definitely learn things about yourself, for sure.
Clay:
Yes, that's a fantastic example and kind of harrowing also. And I'm someone that has, you know, pretty consistently occupied the right side of the slash as a bottom and submissive. So I haven't had that feeling of vulnerability with like a top or dom space. But, you know, I am generally like a rough person outside of, you know, like kink and stuff and I'm can be quite abrasive.
And so sometimes when I think about getting in some sort of like domspace, I'm like “The expertise that I can bring are the teachings of, you know, my family members and how to be rough and abrasive.” I could do that really well. I can make you feel shitty about yourself. If that's what you want. But it doesn't bring me that much joy to actually make someone feel shitty about themselves.
And so it is something that I try to reserve for, you know, my other friends with that same upbringing that need an outlet to be abrasive and shitty with somebody else. Not like totally ethically shitty. But you know, sometimes you got mean guys around. But to kink seems like a fantastic space to bring that, like “This is a part of me that like doesn't really work with connecting with other people. But in this container it can work really well with the partner that I'm trying to connect with because they want to be in this kind of headspace and I can tap into that part of myself. And, you know, get vulnerable.
Lee:
Yeah, it makes me think when you say that, it makes me think of Sir Bobby, who has since passed, out of Pittsburgh, and he referred to in his classes, referred to that notion of finding safe places to let out his own inner serial killer. And having bottoms. No, seriously. Having bottoms. That he could trust. Having submissives. whose act of service was being able to say, “We need to stop.” Having the courage to know their own mind and speak it out loud. Rather than swallowing that from him when they didn't have that capacity. And so he had to find people on the right side of the slash who had those skill sets or could build those skill sets.
And I am always so delighted, amazed. I don't know the right word. When I meet especially people who are what gets called slave heart, like people who are of that level of longing to be owned, cherished, possessed, etc. Who take the time to up their value, to up their own self-worth. Yeah. To up their own capacity to say no.
I am always so impressed with folks who do that. Because there is I mean, there's value in that to the person you hand yourself over to. It's so important. And I see a lot of folks who have a mythology that say it's the opposite, right? Like, “I need to have no limits. I need to have no boundaries.”
And that's hot. Like, I can get off to that. Yeah, that's great. But I want someone on the left side. It's like my answer is my orientation is yes. Right? Like, Who am I into? What's going on? Like, my orientation is Yes, It's about. It's about you, who I'm with. But when I am on the left side of the slash and somebody allows me the capacity to possess them, if they come with that piece, it is such added value.
Clay:
Absolutely. It gets me thinking about, about my, my top and dom side. I don't dabble so much in it, but this is, you know. These are exciting thoughts to to take with me and in in finding other partners or adding to existing dynamics that that might allow for it. That's fantastic. I'm eating that up.
Todd:
Well I wanted to jump into something, and I think Ronen wanted to explore this as well. For the uninitiated, can you explain what kind of spiritual and emotional affirmation one might get from age play?
Lee:
Yeah, age play is such a passion of mine to the point that I remember sitting down with Janet Hardy, who I now is a familiar face to some of y’all. And, back when they owned Greenery Press and we were talking about how age based role playing, is the idea that we can, whatever your current chronological age is, playing up or down that spectrum from there.
Right? So it's somebody who's a 30 year old playing somebody who is two months old, ten years old, 21 years old, 70 years old, Right? It's anywhere up or down the spectrum. And talking with Janet about this and how some people have some false impressions of it, and even in the case of a friend of mine were threatening to out them if they wrote, if they published an anthology on it. And this was a number of years ago back in like ‘06 ‘07.
And Janet was like, Well, how would that being an issue?” I mean, is people talking about either role playing as compared to role being, which is about diving into your own inner self, right? It's looking into your own history and being like, Well, who was I at four years old? Who was I at 14 years, old that can be more intimate and can be mirroring to some degree of parts work in therapy?
And Janet said, “How is that an issue to write a book on this?” And I'm like, “Janet! There's literally no book on this topic in the English language.” And she said, “Great, when are you publishing one? I'll take it. You just have to write it.” And I’m like “Shit!”
Clay:
Got You!!
Lee:
Got me. Right? And age play can be an erotic experience for some people. I remember talking to a couple who were in their sixties or so and they used to role play being 18 years old and quote, sneaking into a bar together. And that was their age play, right? They would sneak into a bar, get drunk and then go make out on Lover's Lane. And I'm like, That's so hot and silly and funny, but also stupidly hot. So they can be erotic or sensual for people who enjoy the sensations maybe of having your hair brushed out by mommy and having a partner who will do that.
But on the spiritual side, I think, and especially with regression, I think about trans people and getting to talk to trans folks who get to live as the boy they would have gotten to be if culture had had different answers for them. Getting to be, somebody who was assigned female at birth, getting to be the nine year old boy, having the blue shit they wanted rather than being forced to have pink.
What would it have been like to get to choose overalls instead of being put into a dress? You know that their family or culture said was the right thing to do. Even if they knew in their heart that was not the right thing to do. And that degree of empowerment and rewriting the wounds of our heart, even if we don't call it spiritual, I think are powerful.
Ronen:
Yeah, that’s definitely powerful. Yeah, go ahead.
Clay:
I was just going to speak on how I haven't felt like... I haven't dabbled so much in the idea of regression. And as a trans person, I continue to have some like dysphoria and disconnection around like sex and my body and who I feel I am versus the body that I see in the mirror and have been told what that body is and what it means and what it's supposed to do.
And I think the idea, I. Like, I haven't come across many ideas of how I would delight in taking part in some sort of age play that felt gender affirming. Because I do a lot of like, I don't know.. I can be like quite a kid around some of my closest friends and, you know? They make me feel so affirmed in my gender as you know, this, you know, little boy making rude jokes and, you know? “Pull up your pants and stop doing all that shit!”
And it makes me feel really seen. And I haven't so much needed, or found a way to bring that type of gender affirmation into a sex and kink container. But so I would be so interested to hear more from other people who are finding affirmation in whatever kink way that they're going about it. And regression and age play is a prime example of getting to rewrite your story and act it out in ways that feel more affirming to you.”
Lee:
So I have a former partner of mine who talks about this story, who goes by the name online of Trans Bear sometimes, or Werewolf King on Tik-Tok, which I just think is such a great handle...
Clay:
Werewolf King!
Lee:
I know right? And they shoot all this Cigar Porn. And like super Grr!! You know? And both of us are trans men. And we ended up doing a scene in the shower as effectively two *** old male friends exploring each other's bodies. This piece that if you might have had a sleepover in this it was mirroring to some degree a story from another one of my friends who was a man who plays with men from some of their own youth. Of exploring with a friend their own bodies and getting to have that.
It wasn't formally negotiated. We had formally negotiated what our sexual lines were, what our body comforts were, what our relationship dynamics were. But this specific scene hadn't been discussed ahead of time. It evolved because we were in the shower and there was this moment of I contact and looking at each other's ass and it's like, Hmmm. Right?
And well, because some people find it really safe, empowering, or hot to know the details of what's coming down the pipeline. And there's others of us for whom it's create a safe paddock for which our horses can run free. And for him and I, it was very much this moment of, we are exploring each other's bodies.
And then after the fact we checked in about headspace. Yeah. And we're like “I was kind of in a ** old boy headspace, where are you at?” And he was like, “I was kind of in a *** year old boy headspace.” And I'm like, “Great. We read each other well.” And it was stupidly hot. Stupidly sexy and we got to have that moment, even if we never formally discussed it and get into live a moment of memory that some other men who play with men have.
Clay:
Exploring with your friends in the bathtub.
Ronen:
Does that bring back memories for everybody?
Clay:
Yeah. A little. It made me think of all of the girlfriends that I had growing up. I was always having, like, a best friend that I was obsessed with. So I never really sexually explored with them. But there would be times during sleepovers that I would be like “Should we like, hold each other or something?” “No, no, no, no, no, no. For sure. Let's just go to bed. I'll see you in the morning.”
Ronen:
For me personally. Okay? I have dissociative identity disorder, and I do have younger parts. I'm a very more sensual as opposed to sexual person. And I find that sometimes, even when it's not I'm not sexual, like just sitting there in coloring like a little kids will put me, like, so much at ease.
But I've definitely had some moments where the *** old boy was there. And, you know, my friend was actually a gay man, but because I was in such a male space, he and I, and I didn't have the language for it back then. He and I played around and fooled around and it was really, really nice and I really felt closer to him.
Lee:
I love that, you know. So DID, or formerly known as as MPD, multiple personality disorder for folks who aren't familiar with it creates a different conversation around consent, though. It's about, at least for me, when I've I have had experiences either internally in a different part of my life before I did a lot of integration work and for friends who that is part of their full life experience, it's about having the conversation not just with you as the default person who fronts, but also when others are fronting or present in the entered in the mental headspace, right? In the room as it were.
Is it appropriate for the six year old to be watching X, Y and Z? Or should they go be tucked into bed first in the back of your brain? And then we come back to the scene. And with age play, I think there's an extra layer that needs to be a conscious of both for internal work, but I would argue also for the people we play with. With a lot of other SM, is there the possibility that our six year old self might unexpectedly front, especially if a certain word gets set in the middle of an SM scene? Yes, it's possible.
But with age play, I find the likelihood of it, the percentage of it to bump up higher. There's a higher percentage or likelihood in age play that these things might come up as compared to an SM scene. And so do we need to tell our partners of our psychological realities? Of how we work? As part of the consent. And then also negotiating with that potential part of you that might front in the middle of that experience.
Like I had to with part of my own mind experience that is a teen, I had a play partner who was like, “I need to know if you're role playing or if that is coming up at all. Because I do not consent to playing with a 12 year old, a 14 year old. I consent to playing with a 44 year old role playing. But if your brain is being a 12 year old, a 14 year old, I do not, as the other person in this room, consent to that.”
So it's both discussing with our partners and also, you know, that in our six year old totally consents if they come forward to cuddling or coloring. The world is Great! Potentially. So it's like I think there's a complexity to the consent, whether it's around DID, or in some situations cPTSD.
Ronen:
What I've learned with myself is having someone who does pay attention to subtle cues that I may not even notice. And like I said, I've had partners stop me. They'd be like, “Hey, time out! You look different. You're moving different, you're talking different. We're going to stop this right now.”
So or, you know, sometimes it changes and I'll become someone who is a little bit older. It is complicated. But I always do tell my partners and make sure they are s informed as possible. And I've had people, you know, reject me because of it. And that's okay. You know, I don't I don't blame them. They don't want the responsibility
Lee:
Or they don't have the skill set. Like they don't have the capacity to catch us if we fall. There's an amazing event, if folks don't know about it, it’s called Thrive and it's the BDSM and Mental Health conference. It's a free online event that is produced by a kink educator and therapist working together.
And there's both a professional track and a number of personal tracks that are all about these intersections. Not specifically DID. But like the conversations around mood disorders as a dominant. How does that come into play? Being in M/s relationship with folks who are neurodivergent. What's that like? Panels of all sorts of people talking about things and then and one track of classes for folks who are professionals who are looking, I'm not sure this year if there's going to be CE credits or not for therapists, but at least the education is taking place.
And I had a chance to host a conversation on there the initial year about mental and role playing and we end up having an entire like the class ended and we had another our spinoff conversation for folks like yourself that are dancing with multiplicity. Because it is its own nuanced conversation that is so rich, so important, and such an amazing thing for folks, even if you don't have DID, if you are exploring and have a diverse array of roles, similar skill sets can be useful and helpful.
Clay:
I feel really lucky to live in an area where sexual wellness shop like As You Like It, where that puts on a lot of workshops and lectures about these kinds of skill sets, that you need for kink and various sexual relationships. And that shit is so cool. And I can't imagine like how difficult it must be to want to develop these skill sets and only have such, such little or scarce access to to sharpen those skills. What a tough space to be in.
Lee:
I mean, it's one of the blessings of how things happened in the initial lockdown that folks like Wicked Grounds and Karada House – Wicked Grounds at a San Francisco Karada House out of Berlin. Having them pivot so quickly from, doing in-person education to online classes, being available. And suddenly, if you're in rural Wales, you have access to education.
And I'm specifically thinking of one M/s household that we're showing up all the time to the classes I was doing on a personal level, all the stuff that either of these other two groups were doing. Of conferences that sprung up, like the embodiment conference that sprung up out of nowhere to to do this stuff. And it wasn't out of nowhere.
It's it was people doing fantastic in-person work who took the time to be like, okay, how do we bring this to our same people? And suddenly those same people weren't the only people in the room. It was folks from Montana. It was folks from northern Mississippi. It was folks that didn't have stuff within a two hour drive of them, who suddenly had this stuff.
And as we have opened up in-person events and programing. Even though choices are being made because COVID is not over and people are still dying and getting COVID multiple times is showing a higher percentage likelihood of long COVID. These things are not done. But with these in-person events coming to being again, having us keep online education available and accessible is such an important thing for folks with disabilities, for folks who do not live in large population areas, for folks who have various stress-related mental realities.
Yeah, I think us empowering, continuing to give our funds to that. For those of us who have the money, continuing to put our butts in the seats. So teachers still want to keep doing this stuff. Keep doing it! Online access matters. Even if you are now choosing to do some in-person stuff. Absolutely.
Todd:
Speaking of online courses. Can you tell us a little bit about the Crotch Rope & Butt Bondage course you're going to do?
Lee:
Yes. So I have this class that I love. I and that's on Crotch Rope & Butt Bondage because I love asses. I don't know about any real. But there is something so fun about playing in this region of the body that in the world of rope bondage, everybody's obsessed with chest harnesses and upper body harnesses and takate kote and these box ties and all this stuff, right?
People are obsessed. But what about the other parts of our body? Doing foot bondage, doing hand bondage, doing leg bondage. And so I developed this class initially when I was going to be going to an event, and they were only giving me 45 minutes for a class. And I'm like, “How can I strip my classes down?”
And so I took one of my larger rope classes and took this section out of it. And then I had a chance to do it for Karada House at the Queer Rope Conference. And if people are not familiar with this event, it's an online robe conference internationally that is just for women and trans and non-binary folks. That is who the conference is for, who are into rope on all sides.
Self bondage, bottoming, topping. E all of the above. Amazing event. And when I was in that class, I had things come out of my mouth because of who was in the room and about the fact that, if you're tying with somebody who has a prosthetic, right, that might be called a packer, that might be called a gaff sort of things that are creating an external prosthetic or things that are holding down tissue to be able to have a flat presentation.
I found myself talking about how those interact with crotch ropes that had never come out of my mouth before I knew them, but they just had never happened. You know, I talked about the fact that if you have external genitalia, be aware that you need to make a choice as you're going down. Are you flattening everything down? Are you going to one side of their beds, the other side of their bits, wrapping around as you continue, in which case here are some safety concerns.
But I never had other conversation come out. And so myself and Mia More, who is an amazing rope educator in her own right, she teaches on things like bandana bondage and being goofy with your place. I love her so much. We are going to do this class that is on tying up butts and making strap on harnesses and doing crotch ropes and talking to our partners about.
The complexity of this region, of our body and our desires. So I am stupidly excited about it. And it's also a nice flex for me and as a stretch as it were, because I've been doing a lot of psychological classes on power exchange and the complexities of power dynamics understand knowing and understanding them with them within the context of cultural power, right?
That if you don't name capitalism, you can't actually name the realities of handing over your money to a dominant. I’m having these dense conversations. So to be able to pause and be like, “And now butts!” Is know is so nice from time to time.
Clay:
I'm glad butts are getting the spotlight that they deserve.
Lee:
Yeah. And there is also something about remembering Joy. I have a Patreon where I do monthly either salons where it's a chance to ask and have conversations about an array of questions while we all have beverages and snacks. Because people in a lot of those “Ask me anythings” are like, all right, we're going to show up sterile. And I'm like, “No! Bring your craft projects. Show up with some, you know, cheese and crackers enjoy your latte. Like, let's just do our thing and be social in a way that if we were all in the same place, we would be social, right? But I either do those or formal classes every month for my Patrons.
And I got to do one on Humor & Kink that I have a recording of up on my site. Up on that Patreon. And it was nice to remind people that laughing has power too. That, as Del Tashlin, who is a sexuality educator who isn't currently practicing, they like to say, “You don't have to be solemn to be serious about something.” And so to be able to be serious but not solemn, I think is so powerful. And it allows us an access point in to our desire, to our connections, especially for those of us for whom solemnity, for being being a “Rrrr! Grrr! I’m flat!!” has been wrapped up with trauma.
I think specifically for people on either side of the slash in power exchange dynamics. Right? Mommy/boy, Daddy/girl, and any of that kind of stuff. But Owner/property, anybody on these formal things for whom they were told this is what the lines are. Suddenly formality doesn't feel safe.
But laughter? Laughter creates this door to possibility and self-identity. It lets me go. “Right. Pleasure! Pleasure is a thing. And I'm allowed it. Pleasures of thing. And I'm allowed it in combination with the fact that it's nice to remember that if you queef or fart – queef is like an air pressure thing in your front hole – if you queef or fart in the middle of a scene or your dildo goes flying, it's not the end.
It's not the end! You can keep going, you can keep having fun. It doesn't have to be shame. Yeah. And so many of us with these things were touch shame and learning about tool set. And remember that the toolset of either outright laughter or the internal giggle that never comes out of your mouth. Either of those are so powerful. And so, yeah. I think it's important to remember that there is both solemness and laughter possibilities on a topic that can be very serious.
Clay:
Yeah, there was a time that I was having, I would, I was doing a scene with a play partner and it was the first time that we had involved at play in it and I was, you know, wearing my first butt plug. Lo and behold, I ended up coming pretty hard and I push that butt plug right out of my ass.
And like, once I realized that that was what I did, I was like, God, I'd probably shit myself. Goddamn it. And, you know, I went to the bathroom and I was like, “This is so weird. This is so weird.” And I and I went home and I was talking to my roommates about it, and I was like, “This it's this is what happened. I need you guys to talk to me about this.” And they were like, “My God, The amount of time that I've just liked, you know, I've got poop on my nose when I was eating my girlfriend out and, you know, I just wipe that shit off and, you know, I continue with my job, you know?”
And I'm like, “Okay, so it's fine that I shot my butt plug out?” And they were like, “Yeah. No, that's fine. Like, that's normal you're okay. Like you have towels for a reason. It's and, and I was like, “Okay, yeah, no. For sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. Okay. Glad we had that conversation.” So yeah, joy and laughter in moments like that is so incredibly important. And I wish I had like laughed more in the moment that that had happened. And not internally freaked out a little bit though.
Lee:
Though, If we have partners who have anxiety of some sort around these topics, fears, concerns. If you were the person doing something to or for someone, the power of if they're in that moment of bliss or whatever, they're distracted in some way. They just came. Quietly going and grabbing that towel, maybe warming it up with some warm water, but not hot coming in, wiping stuff down while kissing them on their pubic area. And having this moment of reconnection while you're doing stuff that you never talk about it, you just do it. fold up that towel set it to the side and go snuggle them.
Or quickly to set that towel in the tub. Yeah, right. Go set that out of the way, cuddle up with them. And therefore they never had to think about it. And if they did think about it, your behaviors as the fucker, can show.
“I love you, I care about you. You're okay.” And even if it's a pick up scene with someone you met off Grindr or whatever, It shows “Meh. Life goes on.” And the person doesn't have to have their next hookup be wrapped in shame. Yeah, and it's just overwhelmingly hot when someone, you know doesn't have to like when they're already thinking about the thing and they don't mention it to you. And they just kind of take responsibility for whatever's happening.
Like, if I'm freaking out in my head and you start doing that shit, I'm immediately coming down off of that, like escalation. I'm like, Okay, I'm cool, I'm fine. Even if they do realize that that happened, I'm not in trouble. It's not gross. They're clearly like, chill and fine with it.
Ronen:
That's why aftercare is so important.
Lee:
Absolutely aftercare is so important. For that reason, though, I will offer that if the relationship is on the flip side, let's say you have an erotic, erotic embarrassment as part of your long term dynamic. I know a number of FemDoms for who that's how they have part of their play, right? Is the embarrassment all the time taking that damn towel and throwing it at someone's face and saying, Clean the fuck up.
That can be really silly and fun to you as a way to do that aftercare you're talking about. It is important is. I heard it described once that aftercare is helping people return to homeostasis. Since aftercare is helping somebody return to the day to day normal so they're not walking into the world vulnerable and exposed. And so in the case of that erotic embarrassment relationship, you're putting them you're getting them out of orgasm headspace and back into the “Oh Yeah!! They possessed me and I like it.” headspace. Right? They're returning them to normal, whatever normal means.
Lee:
But it sounds like, Ronen, for you that aftercare, like you've had that be an important thing for you.
Ronen:
Yeah. It's like you said, the reconnect thing and kind of coming down off the mountaintop sort of thing. They're like, But it's it's a gentle way to remind you of reality again.
Lee:
Yeah. It's important to remember that the world at large exists, even if I don't want it to necessarily be, quote, reality. Because reality is, wherever we place it right, somebody is day to day reality. I think specifically of people who live in the quote, Bay Area Bubble, where it's like their idea of normal is very different than what normal or real.
I think the word you used was reality. Like whatever reality is for people in the Bay Area Bubble is different than the reality of people living in Slidell, Louisiana. Yeah, I know a lot of great perverts in Slidell, Louisiana, so I'm not I'm not hating on that.
Clay:
You turn over any rock, you'll find a pervert. Guaranted. You’ve just gotta look.
Lee:
My gosh, This has been this has been so juicy. Thank you so much for having me on on this show. It's been fun. I'm delighted. And keep up the great work that array of people you both have on the show and the conversations you all have between each other are wonderful and important.
Clay:
Thank you so much for being here, Lee. We really appreciate it.
Lee:
Take care. Bye bye.
Clay:
That was the amazing author and educator, Lee Harrington. Every episode you can join us for a plunge into kink non-monogamy, sex education, deconstructing the Gender Binary, Queer Culture and How to Build Healthy Communities.
Ronen:
Listen in as we talk with and learn from educators, authors, pornographers, health professionals, and people just like you and I. From beginners to veterans, we dive into BDSM, love and heartbreak, mental health, and finding moments of peace and joy amidst the chaos.
Clay:
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Todd:
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