Kink House 1

Community, Mentoring/Age Gaps, Therapy in Kink

In this episode Todd & Clay talk with Clay’s roommates on their personal experiences in kink, age-gap relationships, community building, some of the therapeutic aspects of kink, and what it takes to achieve that level of intimacy in BDSM. Ahead of the interview with the owner of Dex Ranch, Clay and Todd talk about community reputations for Kink Clubs & Dungeons, and the very real risk of consent violations, no matter the setting. What makes for safe exploration? Where and who do we go to in order to learn? We hit on a number of topics that we will keep going with many of our future guests.

Kink House 1 Transcript

Todd: This is the Subspace Exploration Project . In these Kink House episodes we connect and talk with friends, partners and people in our communities to provide an honest perspective on these wild and deeply personal experiences into kink, non-monogamy, mental health, gender expression and building and maintaining these communities. 

In reaching out to learn and experience more in kink, non-monogamy and gender expression, I immediately saw how this younger generation tends to be far more unashamed and courageous in their drive to experience. Their more daring nature is only tempered by their love for safe and welcoming communities. 

In this episode, I sat down with Clay and his roommates to discuss their personal experiences in kink, age gap relationships, community building, therapy and kink, and what it takes to achieve that level of intimacy in BDSM. And ahead of our interview with the owner of Dex Ranch, Clay and I discuss our interest in addressing the community reputations of kink venues and the very real risk of consent violations in more public settings.

Clay: I'm Clay. I use he/they pronouns. I am non-monogamous. I participate in relationship anarchy. I am a very kinky individual and I try to participate a lot in my local community. And, you know, build more community personally with the people that I love. 

Todd: When did you discover kink? Or, when you realize you were interested in Kink? 

Clay: I mean, I would say that it was probably at a very young age that I like....It definitely started out as erotica and porn at a very, I want to say like 10 or 11 years old. That really set a tone. And it was very like kinky, fetishy porn & erotica. And, it had a big impact on me, my proclivities that I have today. And I think I didn't really realize that was a part of my sexuality until, you know, after I'd turned 18. And I made some mistakes in searching for that kind of cup filling experience and like having it happen in a way that was actually like, harmful to myself. And then I realized that it had become like, this is something that I have to, like, seek out in a much more like intentional and healthier way. And I didn't know how to do that, but then I figured that out. 

Todd: As I'm learning more about the community, I'm seeing two distinctly different ways to approach connections. And that is: these people that will go to an event, maybe get on FetLife or something, and they will find somebody kind of vet them online. Like, “You look alright.” And they'll talk to some other people that they only kind of know online and they'll be like. “Hey, let's meet at this place and let's do the scene.” For some people, and it seems like the older generation, they will go and explore these scenes in this very compartmentalized setting. Whereas there's others that will, I mean, it may be pretty well self-contained, but they do take a much longer time developing some kind of connection with the person. You know, whatever that looks like. And building that trust. And the self-contained scene at some remote location kind of thing. That doesn't make any sense to me. But I'm wondering, like, is there a certain utility in that. Like, does it make sense to any of you? 

Astrid: I feel like I can talk about that. I engaged in that kind of one night stand type behavior. Or like, really disconnected hookups where I was not emotionally attached. Or like, yeah. It was just a person I was there to do a deed with. And I was seeking people out that I was like, the light vetting was in that like, okay, as far as I can perceive, they're going to like, treat me the way that I want to, in the kinky way, which is the rough way. That was my personal pipeline. 

And then getting that experience and then being able to be like, done. And it happened. And that's what the purpose of that was kind of, see, I try to build a safe and boring life for myself because of childhood trauma and personal anxiety and mental health. And so my coping has been very safe, boring, coping life, slow. And then I had….Yeah, the risky experiences. Yeah. 

Clay: Did you ever did you ever find like in your like one night stands where you were trying to like, have that cup filled in like in your earlier days, Did you find it like, at all harmful to yourself? Like, for me, I tried to do some of that, and I, like I always ended up feeling like total shit afterwards. because, like, I didn't for me, I need to feel a lot more comfortable with a person and like, know them a bit more outside of like an explicitly sexual setting to feel like, okay, like I, “I'm pretty sure I can like, do this kind of vulnerability with you.” And I didn't use to like, really check on that part of that person. I used to be really into the one off scenes, and I wouldn't even consider them scenes when I was doing them. I was just like trying to hook up and get my rocks off in like kind of a rough way. And it just ended up being like, harmful because there's like no aftercare there.

There's no like, discussion or negotiation of like what is and is not okay. And so me personally, I'm not a fan of the like one off like, “Yeah, you seem okay let's fuck!” You know like let's do a scene or something, you know? Unless they seemed like a very veteran, safe Kinkster that like, I don't know, was hitting a lot of green flags for me. Then I might consider it depending on what we're doing. But I guess I don't necessarily see the benefit of all of like a one off scene experience. I see harm in it for some people, and I think some people can do just fine in those kinds of things and can separate themselves from the other person before after the thing. I don't know. For me, the connection is an important part of the experience. 

Todd: Well, yeah. I mean, from what I see as the main benefits of that kind of power exchange, I can't see how much of the reward system is present in a one night stand. Like a one off scenario. 

Clay: Seems like it really depends on what it is you're trying to do. I struggle to think of, like the type of play that I would want to engage in that would be like, “Yeah, that would be fine.”  My mind comes to group play, but then I think more about it and then like, I don't want to just engage in some stuff with these people that I don't really know. Like I would want someone to like to know them at the very least. You know, vetting is difficult. 

Astrid: Yeah. Which is, I would say, I suppose, the appeal to not vet. And somebody like me that is very low energy. That was part of it. It was easy to get that kind of very quick validation that I wanted in some way. Yeah, that was like the person to person validation and then physical pleasure. I was never really engaging in the more painful, harmful or degrading, the kind of negative aspect experiences of kink. Or one night stands.

Clay: Like pain for pleasure, right? 

Astrid: Yeah. So I got away with not too much aftercare was okay. 

Clay: Just you took a lot of my beginning experiences must've been just like subdrop after subdrop. Like, not a good feeling. Like I wasn't engaging in any kind of like masochistic…. I'm a masochist. I love pain. I think it's fun. And also not fun. But I am like I like to challenge myself and I'm often putting my partners pleasure, like ahead of my own. And so like a lot of my sexual experiences when I was younger were like, I'm doing this to feel a little hot and good about myself and like, maybe try to make this into like some sort of, like, fantasy scene situation, but it never really dipped into that and it was always disappointing.

And then I did like definitely feel like heavily used and abused afterwards and I'm like, “Great!” And then I feel like shit. And then I do it again. Then I feel like shit again. And so, and that, that and after like a bunch of that, I just started, I thought I was asexual for a while. And that was really tough because I had like, had one point really enjoyed sex and I was a horny young person.

I'm still a horny young person! So it was really sad to go through a few years of like, I don't touch myself. I don't want to touch anyone else. I think about a naked body like it's all bad and not good. And I like totally forsook. I had forsaken my inner kinky, debaucherous desires and fantasies.

And then I really lost myself for a long time. And then I found myself. “Surprise! I'm Trans!” So once I started thinking things like that out I and just like finding like a healthy, kinky, queer community online, I was like, “Oh! Oh! I can do this. This is for me. This is something that people do. And like, I can do it too.” And I did. And I have a good time. 

Todd: I think the journey of growing into oneself can continue for a very long. It's kind of nonstop for a lot of people I think. And I think that's kind of the fun of it. I mean, you make a lot of mistakes along the way. And, you just you realize after nearly every relationship that you didn't let your self have all what you needed out of it. It's important to feel like you have to learned and grown. 

Clay: It sucks if you haven't grown. I grow all the time. Yes. Because I take T and my clit gets bigger every day. No, I'm just kidding. My hair, grows too. 

Todd: What do you think about the idea of kink as harm reduction?

Clay: I think I haven't had like, I haven't participated in or seen too much conversation about kink as harm reduction. But I do have opinions about like... Maybe this connects to kink is harm reduction, but kink as, like, therapeutic. And, like a way to work through trauma. And so I wonder like one of the first things that comes to mind for me is like, like an act. Like if you have a tendency to like, you know, self-harm..Llike one of the things that you can do..Maybe one of those, if you're also kinky or whatever, maybe one of the things that you can do to like reduce the self-harm is like to participate in kink in some way. And maybe that doesn't have to necessarily be, “Instead of cutting yourself or hurting yourself like you have someone else hit you about.” That's not what I'm talking about. But maybe it's like kink in some sort of like explicit, tender, like caring procedural  way that like, gives you a space to feel the pain that you're feeling when you want to participate in self-harm. And instead have a different container to be with yourself and another person that that makes you feel more connected to that that part of yourself.

Like whether that's your young self that is hurting or like, like any, any part of yourself that's hurting. To connect to that part of yourself and give them a space to be in pain in a way that does not actually contribute to their own harm, harming themselves. That's what I think of. I don't know if you guys have heard or have thoughts about it. 

Astrid: I have very similar thoughts. I haven’t had any sort of community exposure. Or, heard anyone else talk about it, but I think I’ve probably seen that pattern in my own actions. and then as I become more aware of it, I've been able to do it more, more safely. And it is a really great coping strategy and like even be a little bit from reduction is probably more kind of what it was at my beginning stages, but it can get more beneficial without the obviously the harm. The trouble is finding somebody who is like that you can connect can be vulnerable and authentic to share that like most hurting part of you because it's usually just hidden away. 

Clay: I think it's also like really deep, at least for me, it feels like a lot of the hurting part of myself is deeply connected to my kinky self. And I think it can also be pretty difficult to find a kinky play partner or partner in general that like wants to engage with you on that really tender, non-explicitly-sexual side of things.

And that can be, I don't know, I see that a lot on the internet and stuff and like, you know, the cool, queer, kinky people that I follow are engaging in that sort of thing and that seems fucking amazing! And highly desirable by many people. I know. And yet it can be difficult to find partners that want to also engage with you on that side of your vulnerability. Yeah, that's tough. What as an interested to know what you've heard about kink as harm reduction. If you've heard discourse on it and what you thought.

Todd: Not a ton. I mean, I was listening to the Dildorks and they were they were talking about it a little bit. And usually if you've had any kind of trauma, it's probably made worse by your poor decision making. And then you spend this time figuring out how to create a space to be vulnerable in. And outside of kink, unless you just stumble upon a person who connects with you perfectly. I don't see how you can be able to create that perfect scene where you feel cared for and like all these different levels of yourself are satisfied.

Clay: Satisfy Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs all in one sitting. 

Todd: Yeah, I don't. I don't see how it's possible outside of kink. And there's this shorthand in kink. You know, you spend ideally a couple of hours, but you know, it could be 20, 30 minutes. 

Clay: Sure, if you’re fantastic communicators. 

Todd: and, you know, this is what I would like to achieve and it if you trust them there know in your own you create a space of healing even if you're beating the shit out, you know.

Clay: Yeah. I will say like sometimes to like getting the shit beat out of me is that vulnerable healing space that I need to, like be witness having a bad time. And like, people are allowing it to happen. Or like, giving me the care. I think about all of the, like, rough, shitty, bad times that I had as the, the youngest on both sides of my families is like rough older boy cousins who were like, just like.. It feels like it was I was just like being pushed around and manhandled and like my no’s were never ever taken seriously, ever. And, so sometimes in kink, I feel like in some ways it feels like I try to recreate a situation where, like, my autonomy is taken away but re-experience a situation like that, that and better. 

Alia: In a much more controlled environment. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You do have control over the situation. When in the past you did not.

Clay: No, no, no. And I know that like if I were to really signal like, okay, this is a real no, please, actually, let's stop right now. I know it would absolutely be you listened to. And you know, when I was upset about the things that happened to me as a kid, when people ignored my, you know, crying and dissent it was all, you know, “Get over it. Be more resilient. We're all just trying to have fun. And, you know, you make it difficult for us to have fun.” 

And I'm I don't know. That has been a narrative that has been fed to me that like, I’ve just got to be docile and, like, resilient and, like, cool and allow people to do these shitty things that they need to do because they're trying to enjoy themselves and I'm preventing them from enjoying themselves and I don't know.

So kind of like flipping the script and being like, this is unenjoyable, but it's like meant to be unenjoyable kind of. And I also get like tons of rewards and praise for it. I haven't thought, like, too deeply into these too in this, into this like analogy. So, but I don't know. Yeah. Also in a way of like, like harm reduction.

Sometimes I do need the shit beat out of me and that's the harm reduction. I don't know, like what harm would happen if I didn't get the shit out of me? I think I would just be a meaner person. I sometimes I think if I didn't have, I would have less compassion. 

Alia: It's probably true maybe. I think so too. I don’t think you would be evil with no Kink. But I think it definitely gives you a different facet to like, I don't know, It's just, I guess, experiment with these different feelings and these different traumas that you couldn't really tap into in a normal, like, therapy conversation. 

Clay: Well, yeah, because I can intellectualize it and talk myself through it all day.

Alia: But it may be completely different to do to enact some of your traumas physically with another person that you trust. In that setting, for sure.

Clay: Yeah, Yeah. And like I also remember and I kind of feel like I might still feel this way. I know I definitely do, because there have been times I was going to say that I, I think about all the times that, like I've been wrestling with my older sisters or my older cousins and they've like, pinned me down and my legs. I can't I can't move my legs. And it's not just like like my ankles, but like my legs are weighed to the ground. That, like, immediately sets me into a place of panic. Every single time. 

Even when, like, I think recently someone had, like, came in and laid down on top of me. I think it was Lee. And I had a blanket on my legs and I couldn't move my legs. And I was like, “You have to get up right now.” Like, I wasn't like truly panicking, but like I couldn't stand the sensation for like, a moment longer. I needed to get up immediately. 

Todd: And it was going to send you there. 

Clay: Yeah, it's going to send me there. And so there are still some, like, physical reactions that I have to being restrained that do kind of trigger me, I guess.

But I don't know. I can't think of a specific situation and like that happened that made me afraid of my legs being tied down. I mean, like I'm down for it, but I think like sometimes I think about a Vac Bed. I don't know if. I know, you know, what about… Have you ever heard or seen or heard of a Vac Bed?

It's like a kink toy. It's basically like you're, like, sealed in, like still like a back, like you're in a vacuum sealed bag. There's absolutely no movement around. It's like, totally sensory deprivation. And so I think about that. And I'm like, yeah. I think I might panic in one of those. I don't think I could do that much restriction of like, here I would try and like, maybe we do want me to cry for a second and then all of a sudden I come out of it and everything's fine. It's like, “See that can happen and you can be okay afterwards. It’s OK.”

Todd: So I wanted to talk a little bit about Dex Ranch thing. As far as I know, it sounds like the people for that instance were, are lifetime banned. The details surrounding it. I've no idea how it was navigated. But the thing is, is like, I think it'd be important and we could decide after we talk to him, if we feel like we want to platform him. And that’s what I'm getting at.

Do we want a platform him and do we want to see? Do we want to sit down and talk with him and see what his take on it was? How did he navigate it? Does he regret the way he dealt with things at the time, and what has he learned since then? I mean, because I would assume that a semi-public setting like that, there's always going to be a risk of consent violations.

How quickly people jump on it and deal with it and how they deal with it, how they deal with that. That's all very important. Yeah. And that's things. I want to find out…

Clay: How was it dealt with? 

Todd: Yeah. How was it dealt with? And if he screwed up then how has he made things better. 

Clay: Do you understand that you screwed up, if you screwed up? And, like, what's your plan for the future? 

Todd: Yeah. No, I don't want it to. I don't think we’d get very far if we were like “So I heard some dirt on you and….”

Clay: Yeah. No, no, no. I don't get to tell you this, I agree. I agree. This has to be…

Todd: We have to be tactful. 

Clay: Yeah, What a lovely, wonderful space. Which is true. I personally have been told by, like, a play partner, we had talked about Dex Ranch and he had advised against it due to hearing about some consent violation, you know, dubious activity. And now I'm being told that, you know, Dex Ranch is cool now or whatever. So as someone who wants to participate in my local Kink community and this being one of those spaces, what happened there? And, like what can you tell me as someone who wants to come here and participate, how can you reassure me that like, like what happened? What's your plan for the future? 

Because I understand that consent violations do happen, no matter where you are, unfortunately. But what's important is dealing with it. I don't know. But I agree that it can't be like “TMZ magazine!! We hear that you’re a #*%&head!!”  You know? 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I think we're on the same page about this. Because I've been out there three times at this point. It's a really cool, welcoming space. But that's dependent on the people that are present. And that’s the thing. It's a public place and anybody can show up. And so, like I would anybody going out there for the first time, I recommend going with at least one friend trust. There’s not really any need... If you want to hook up with somebody up there, don't go anywhere. Unless you know the person.

There's a vetting period. And I feel like this is the vetting. Like shit wasn't dealt with properly back then. Clearly. Or at least some people feel like it wasn't done properly. So, like, maybe we can kind of help shine a light on it to some extent and you know, not mention. So yeah, like potentially cleared things up a little bit or at least start a different kind of dialog in this back and forth, this on social media about it.

You know, it looks like the same arguments that were happening four years ago are still going on. People have the same grudges. Some of it's over petty shit that has nothing to do with a consent violation. And so it's not going anywhere. But there's still a very real concern. And the kink scene is growing. There's more and more young people going out there, and if there is a real issue, safety issue, then I think people need to know 

Clay: Yeah, about their community. And inform their choices.

Todd: And, so I think it would be helpful to go out there, interview him, and check out the space. And that creates one more piece of media that new people can check out and make their own choice regarding it.

Alia: Yes and missing the context of this. Are you going to interview like the owner of this place? Tea! Gossip! Interesting. And so something happened there and then y'all are just like interviewing him to see if you can handle a type of situation like that? 

Clay: Shining a light on… That and also I think just being like: Spaces like this place are available to some people. These are cool places to do play and to talk to other people or doing play here or whatever. And also how do you handle consent when you have when you're operating a space like that? And that brings up the question of: We heard something about a situation where something like that happened and we're curious about what your process was handling something like that. Yeah. As someone who's going to have a space like that, I think it's important to have a good game plan. Is in your mind for when something like that inevitably happens. 

Todd: Yeah. I could just ahead of time be like….

Clay: Here's the questions that we're going to have. 

Todd: Yeah, I mean, I've done that before for like the radio show, interviews and stuff.

Clay: They do that on Jimmy Fallon I think.

Todd: It's just, you know, I don't want to blindside you. Yeah, but we do want to talk about this. And, you know, be very tactful with what I list. And let him know that we're not trying to... This isn’t a gotcha piece. It's just important to discuss because it's a very real aspect of this kind of business.

Clay: Right? Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to it. And also to like seeing this space. Seeing this space because I've been to two fetish events, both of them being at bar clubs. One of them was here in Eugene at Old Nick's Pub for their fetish night, and that was really cool. They had tastings, but it wasn't necessarily like a playing type of environment.

It was just a place for Kinkster, fetish people to be in there, whatever clothes they want to wear. And I guess maybe even like I think I saw some people in like leashes and collars. So like that was also part of the atmosphere. But beyond tastings, there wasn't any actual play going on. Yeah. The other place that I had been to was Sanctuary PDX in Portland, and that was much more of like an explicitly club like play setting. Where they also had like a bracelet, more of like, you know, one glow bracelet for yes, one glow bracelet for no.

If you're not looking for any play or if you are. I had a NO bracelet on. I was by myself and I still got approached for a threesome by the same people. Multiple times, so. You know, it wasn't my favorite experience. I would have much rather gone with, you know, Comrades in kink. 

Todd: What are some warning signs that a power exchange might not be healthy or that a potential connection might not work?

Clay: I don't know, because I haven't had that many like.. My conversations tend to be, if I'm finding someone to be a red flag or a no, that conversation is very short and I can figure that out pretty quickly. And I think. I don't know, I'm usually going for the neurodivergent older like the older men. That are like, I don't know, they're all like the same kind of font.

They're all like, weird and neurodivergent in some way. They all love Doctor Who. They all like. They're all fucking nerds. They're all big ass nerds. I have a ton of shit to talk about, and I. I love it. And I don't know, those men tend not to be so threatening also. So they end up being more green lights than red.

And so I'm not immediately attracted to the walking red flags. They're nice in theory. I love to fantasize about the security guards at the 13th & Olive apartment complex. It was really fun, but they are definitely all ex-military and those are often red flags. Yeah, sorry. Guilty until proven innocent on that one, unfortunately. 

Todd: No, I think everybody has a type. At least one type.

Clay: Yeah, I yeah, I will definitely have a few. I have a few different types. But in terms of like just getting my kinky rocks off, it tends to be the same font. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm fervently looking for a mommy domme, but low stocks. Scarcity. They’re scarce. Shortage. Just like there's mask shortage. And a top shortage. And I happened to say. I happened to be both a mask in shortage and a top in shortage. So I am contributing to the problem. But I'm also a victim of the issue as well. So it’s very serious. 

Alia: You know, And I mean, I mean, the red flags in a power dynamic. I mean, thinking of my relationships, just a lack of vulnerability and communication. Especially in a kinky relationship. I mean, the thing from what I've learned about kink, especially through your lens, is that what's really good about kink, is that: In the ideal kink relationship, in a kink dynamic, is that there is a lot of openness in communication about sex. Which, in my background that’s very taboo. You don't talk about that. Yeah.

And you know, having that openness to sex, which is something at least I think is a very vulnerable, intimate thing to do with another person. And that opens up for vulnerability to happen that allows you to work through trauma, through kink. That allows you to address a lot of your insecurities. You know, a lot of people have trauma around sex. And in a bad power dynamic, that's something that would need to be allowed to be explored as intimately as it would in a good dynamic where there is that openness in communication. And that lack of judgment.

Clay: Right out the gate for me. A cis heterosexual man is a red flag. 

Alia: I would say the first red flag? A man. 

Clay: That's my first choice. Unfortunately, I am attracted to some red flags.

Alia: You are. Yeah. I'm not.

Clay: No. Alia is a misandrist, a man hater. And I’m very much behind that. Like I wish I could be as strong as you. 

Alia: It’s so very deeply ingrained. I sometimes feel bad about it. 

Clay: I don't think you should. 

Alia: But, my therapist said I shouldn’t. So. 

Clay: Listen to your therapist. But you made me think of how…. In terms of, like. Like how I also think that people who don't want to talk about body parts, but want to engage in sex are like you are still uncomfortable with bodies. And like, I'm also kind of uncomfortable with bodies but it's something that I'm like, aware of and push through. And and talk about body parts and like, what do we like our body parts called?

How do we want them to be touched? Like, what does that mean for you play partners who are interested in like, how kink is…. How like gender affirmation and dysphoria are tied into your kink. And how that might affect the play between you? Those are important. I have a lot of green flags that I can speak on, but I struggle to find the like, definite, obvious red flags.

Todd: Yeah, well, I mean, that's a good sign because it shows that you're successfully creating… What you're doing at least, right now, you're successful in creating that space you need. 

Clay: Yeah, I get that cup filled pretty well. I think. Yeah.

Todd: But speaking to what you were talking about. That the failure to be vulnerable, it's like, like. In what I understand so far, if you're involved in kink especially. And you can't be vulnerable with someone, then you aren't. You're engaging, you're something else. Because ultimately, as far as I can see, there's not really any such thing as a Dom. Both people are submissive to the consent of the other and the space that they're creating. Yeah. Yes. You know. Yeah. And if someone has got it in their head “I’m a real Dom!” and they think they’re some fucking hot shit and they can get vulnerable with that other person and open up…

Clay: Then you're not engaging. 

Todd: Yeah. They're not engaging, and that shit is dangerous. 

Alia: I feel like that's the line between sex being an act, which. I feel like it happens a lot more, especially in like heterosexual relationships where it's something you just do. You know, it’s an act that you don’t really talk about your preferences or your opinions about it. Like there's no curiosity about it where you find the vulnerability and you move through probably the discomfort of talking so intimately about your body and your feelings with sex. That makes it more of a collaborative experience. An experience, for sure, yeah. Rather than just go through the motions of. 

Todd: Age gap relationships. I’m generally not a fan of them or comfortable with them. But in the context of the mentor/mentee, or at least that kind umbrella. In the world of kink, where there's a very deliberate, well-defined space, dynamic that is created. It makes a certain kind of sense that it wouldn't otherwise.

Clay: Yeah, it's like it's somehow like, I don't know, like if I, if someone was engaging in like in an age.. Like, I don't know. What are we considering an… Whatever you consider an age gap relationship, I guess that maybe depends for some people. But in my head that's like ten plus years of a difference. To be honest, maybe more.

But it kind of feels and I don't… I don't have that much of a strong opinion on like age gap relationships that don't dip into like kink or anything. And it's just like sex and they love each other or something? That somehow still feels, like more malicious than like, explicitly engaging with each other for, like, the shared common interest of kink. Not just like sex, but kink and different dynamics.

And this like, very communicatively, explicit and well navigated, collaborated on, dynamic. That just doesn't seem like it would really happen outside of two people seeking each other out for kink. Like maybe those conversations seem like they would happen less outside of an experience like that. And so an age gap relationship in terms of kink. Yeah. Seems far less questionable than like, I don't know, falling in love with someone 20 years younger than you. I don't see how you can. Or I don't see how I can fall in love with someone 20 years older than me. Boring. I don't see I can fall in love with anybody, but that's a different can of worms. Like, you know, sometimes, at some point people bother me and can't imagine.

Like, you bother me very little. And that's why I like to spend my time with you. I'm like, Now this guy hits most of the time, like 90 times out of 100 times. Like you're hitting for me. I Hate you the least!!! 

Alia: Lucky me. Lucky me. 

Clay: I love her a lot. Like I cherish you. 

Alia: We’re gettin’ that on video. Yeah. Yeah.

Clay: I say it to the camera. I cherish Alia very, very much. I’ll jump in front of the car for her.

Alia: He's my say say. He’s my baby. She's my baby. I would do anything for you to name. 

Clay: I know. I seen’t it. 

Alia: I don’t know how we got there. Oh yeah. You don’t like people. I think that I don't have much experience with the age gap relationships. Again, thinking about kink, especially in my upbringing. It was very demonized, of course. I was in the Bible Belt, but of course it was. And so the addition of an age gap is like, well, that's pedophile. It's either pedophile or victim. You know? And so it's not that I really adopted that scope ever, I feel like. But definitely being exposed to how that can actually play out in real life, especially with, you know, my best friend doing that.

Clay: I do that shit all the time.

Alia: I do that and hearing about his experiences through it. I understand it a lot more, especially in the kink aspect. Like, I agree, there's somehow a difference between it being like going through in a kink perspective versus a romantic relationship.

Clay: What are you being romantic about? 

Alia: Yeah. What do you guys have to relate to?

Clay: One of you has some growing up to do. 

Alia: Yeah. I don't know. And like for me, I don't think I'd ever imagine myself being attracted to anyone younger than me though it's hard to say because I'm 22, so anyone younger than me is a minor.

Todd: Okay, you know, I've given it some thought, especially recently. You know, generally, for the most part, big picture. I've got a problem with it. But also, when I was in my early twenties I had this situationship with a coworker that was 38 and then another one that was 48, like a year later. And, all positive experiences. I think I benefited, you know, because it wasn't super complicated.

Yeah, if we actually dated or something then it would have been weird, I think. But it was just hooking up for a couple months. That’s what it was for me. And the reason why I do definitely have a problem with age gap relationships is because there's a very high potential for consent issues. In any situation where there's some kind of power exchange and age is involved, you need to know every fucking day that you engage with them that their consent is there. And it's not compromised, you know? And if it ever is, there's a fucking problem, you know? 

Clay: And I think that makes me think of like, you know, indecisive people can sometimes be like, you know, beige red flags. Because I'm like, can I trust that you're telling me actually that this is what you want?

And I don't find that often to be a red flag in searching for dominance at all. But I think that can easily be a red flag for many submissives. Submissives that don't that aren't solid in their yeses. And are don't have that many nos. That is not someone that I would have an easy time engaging with period or like especially engaging in like play in kink or any kind of sex.

I want like enthusiasm to something. And if there's not enthusiasm, is it the kind of like, “that's scary type of like, but I'll do it.” kind of enthusiasm? Like, are we excited to do something? Are we enthusiastic to do something that is scary? Or are we not enthusiastic in a way that's like, “I don't think I want to do that.” I'm just not enthusiastic about that. It's not necessarily that. Like, I would hate that. I just, I don't know. It’s that it’s an important partner in finding a partner for this kind of someone you can trust. Their yeses and nos 

Alia: You don’t want them to be, like, a people pleaser.

Clay: Yeah. This is not what this kind of space is about. It's about being selfish. Sort of like. 

Todd: But I mean, you can be a people pleaser. But yeah, you have to be confident and very specific in what you're doing. 

Clay: How you're choosing to people please. For me, that comes often like, you know, being a fun toy to play with and someone else like enjoying playing with this toy or whatever, you know, if I'm pleasing someone. But it's also like in a way that pleases me and is giving me pleasure. Like, that's cool. That's cool people pleasing. Yeah, that's a way that do it in a way that's good for you and other. But if you're like, “Yeah, if you want to do this, I'm cool with that too….” 

Alia: If you’re ignoring your own needs or feelings, anything. It isn’t good. It's self destructive and it's not good for the other person involved. 

Clay: Because then they can't they can't trust you. Slash, they've become an aggressor? 

Alia: Yeah. And like leave like in a position where it creates a power dynamic. 

Clay: So I've assaulted you? What? Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah, Yeah. And that sucks. That sucks. But that often something like… It's unfortunate that a lot of like… I wonder why people don't feel good about, like, actually saying what they want. Yeah, I'm not surprised that that's an issue for people.

Todd: That was Clay at the Kink House. And this is the Subspace Exploration Project. Hit subscribe, comment, like, and share. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Acast and RSS Feed.