Nathaniel Lundin

Community and our Capacity for Empathy

On this episode of the Subspace Exploration Project Todd, Clay, and Ronen spoke with Nathaniel Lundin, E-RYT, human physiology nerd, about social health and it’s impact on others. About how community, social and political structures directly impact our health, happiness and safety. From dysphoria to anxiety to numerous other issues that are commonly regarded as disorders, some or all could very well be entirely the result of rigid social structures and a deficit of empathy.

Nathaniel Lundin Episode Transcript

Welcome to The Subspace Exploration Project, a personal journey into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression and building community.

In this episode, we had a great talk with our friend, Nate Lundin, about how community, social and political structures directly impact our health, happiness and safety.

Let's jump into our talk with Nate.

My name is Nathaniel Lundin.

I am a somatic practitioner.

I teach yoga for an institution of higher education.

If you can believe that, they pay me less than minimum wage.

I am also probably at this point, a diversity token in my department, which affords me some job security.

Oh good.

You know an awful lot about psychology.

I don't know about an awful lot.

It's my undergrad.

I got my BS in psychology.

Wasn't a bad education.

There are some shittier psychology degrees out there.

Psych kinda has this reputation for being one of those things you do when you don't know what you wanna do.

And a lot of departments will crank out some really shitty psych degrees.

But if you're careful, you can piece something together that's legit.

So I sent you some papers that Ronen had actually sent me.

Yeah.

And I was wondering if you had a chance to look those over.

Did.

I didn't examine the design of the study.

I'm not really like interested.

It'll be peer reviewed if it's not already, if somebody finds problems with the design, they can do that.

I don't give a shit.

But I can't say I'm surprised.

I mean, I'm surprised they got funding for that because like nobody gives a shit.

It's actively, you know, it actively challenges the status quo.

And you know, these institutions don't particularly like to get money to that sort of thing.

So I'm sort of surprised that someone got a grant to do that study.

Good on them.

Good job.

Yeah, I can't say that any of the findings are particularly surprising.

Now, this is another one of those like correlation does not equal causation situations.

So we don't know what the causal factors are or what direction this is in.

But I mean, if you're, we're talking about, you know, being non-neurotypical in one way, why would it be odd for you to also be non-neurotypical in another?

And if, you know, if you're in a situation where you're forced to do a bunch of soul searching and questioning in order to be able to fit into the society that you live in, I don't see why you wouldn't do that in multiple areas of your life.

It just trains you to think that way.

Yeah, I don't, I thought it was great.

I'm really glad somebody ran that study.

It's awesome.

Do more, do more.

Do more.

Yeah, I read, there's one I have a little bit here.

I don't know if it came from one of those articles.

It may have come from a different one, but it says studies suggest that individuals with gender and sexual identities outside the binary were also three to six times more likely to also be on the autism spectrum.

And also there were higher rates of OCD and ADHD with gender divergent, you know, individuals.

So, like you said, it's not really surprising.

I mean, that sounds kind of like, what was it, the anxiety and the OCD, and also being on the autism spectrum does kind of sound like comorbidities that often occur with each other.

I don't know how often, but they would seem more directly linked to each other than one's gender identity.

I'm gonna call the anxiety, et cetera, et cetera, a symptom of like societal pressure more than anything else.

It's inside the binary, in a binary society.

It causes anxiety.

Shocking.

The foundation of this talk, I was hoping would be to kind of dig in and help non-trans, non-binary people understand what gender dysphoria is and what it might look like and what other types of experiences might be similar to dysphoria, because it's a very real, substantial thing.

Those, especially on the right, that don't have any comprehension of what it is, they just dismiss it as just a word, but it clearly impacts people in a substantial way.

And I was hoping that maybe you could start by describing what dysphoria is, and maybe point to other.

Well, can you help define what gender dysphoria is?

I mean, we can start, we can dance around it.

The thing is, it's a really difficult thing to pin down, even when you're experiencing it.

Like a lot of people struggle their entire lives to identify that feeling.

And that makes it really difficult to have that discussion, especially with people who do not experience that in any way.

Like how do you really tell someone who's never seen the color red, what the color red is?

And we all have, there's some overlap in everyone's experience, but then there's like the individual expressions of this stuff and how it comes out in our behavior, especially when we're not entirely self-aware.

But, I mean, there are forms of dysphoria that cis and non-conforming people also experience, you know?

Like, there's a lot of folks running around out there who have really serious problems just presenting in their own skin.

And those people can probably relate to a certain degree, especially people with dysmorphic disorders.

I'm not sure how disordery that is, just like I'm not sure how disordery transness is.

But, like, if there's some part of your body that makes you so deeply uncomfortable that you can't present yourself to the rest of the world, it doesn't really matter whether it's visible or not.

That feeling is crippling.

And a lot of people with, you know, who experience this do end up doing something about it medically if there is something to be done about it medically.

So I'm not even really sure like why it's so hard to wrap your brain around honey.

Please explain to her.

It's fine.

No, I mean, she very much gets it.

She knows exactly.

And I mean, it's pretty fundamental.

It really is that basic.

Like, you know, just this visceral feeling of an inability to exist in one's own skin.

And for that to be like, you know, permeating and pervasive and ongoing.

And I guess that's that's kind of the gist of it.

Well, they're just until recently, there hasn't really been language for it.

And so a lot of people, like you said, they experience most of their lives.

Me personally as well, trying to pin down what that feeling is.

There's like an absolute deep dread is the closest thing.

I like that's it's just you can't shake it.

And it does very seriously affect your daily life.

Oh, absolutely.

Dread and horror.

Disgust and aversion.

I mean, how are you supposed to form an identity when that's your relationship with the machine you're living in?

And then when the machine doesn't align with who you are and the expectations of you socially are mismatched, like it's a shit show.

It's a mess.

And you know, there's clinical language for this stuff and has been for, you know, going on a hundred years, but that doesn't help most people.

Yeah, there's no in the layman's.

There were no words.

And for me, both my parents were teachers.

And but they did not believe in ADHD or autism.

They just believe that they were naughty children.

They didn't want to listen from the old school.

Oh, very much so.

Very much so.

And me being a fab, of course, there was nothing wrong with me at all.

No, no, no, because you behaved yourself.

Right.

Of course.

Yes, I did.

And so, like a lot of people, I hear the same, I hear my story from other people so often, like got put in the gifted program, got burnout, got, you know, pushed through, pushing through college, pushing through all these other things.

And we get burnt out.

And everyone wonders why.

And it's because, you know, there's so much going on inside.

Like you said, the people who are experiencing dysphoria, especially, you know, you have to do a lot of searching yourself and really, really looking at yourself.

And because that's the part that a lot of people, it's not just one day I decided that, oh, I think I'm going to be gay or something, you know.

It doesn't work that way.

It starts when you're little and you start to realize immediately that your skin is not, you know, like something I heard earlier was, it was between about the age of eight or nine, you know, people already know usually that they're gender divergent.

I mean, that was when it was like, I couldn't avoid it anymore.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then it says, but a lot of people don't come out until about, you know, up to a decade after they realize this about themselves because they don't, you have to go on a soul-searching mission.

I find it amazing the thought of being able to come out at 18.

Yes.

That would be, that would have been amazing.

No, as opposed to coming out at 40.

I think it's beautiful that people can do that.

I wish, I think that they should have more support.

Yes.

I think people should be able to come out whenever they figure it the fuck out.

But I will point out that there's definitely a generational shift happening, and it brings me joy.

Yes, it's so awesome.

I went to Costco, and there was a young kid working there, and he just hollered at me, like, your earrings, boss.

Fuck yeah.

That was so cool.

Fuck yeah, bro.

Your generation is just, yeah, I love the whole attitude.

I can dig it.

I was just thinking about how, like, in talking to my parents and other people their age, so late 50s and 60s, and talking to them about gender divergence is so difficult.

And I got to hand it to my mom, and I guess also my dad a little bit, but I really got to hand it to my mom for, you know, trying and trying and trying, and, like, everybody getting mad at her all of the time for not getting it and trying anyway.

But this is not me saying, oh, my gosh, cis people, we love you so much, you did so good.

But it's just, it's the way that their brains are wired to think about other people.

And maybe it's, you know, the type of person that my mom is and the way that she needs to categorize things.

But they have this need to, like, take a person and put them in a box and, like, label and understand fully.

And it's, it's really, really gets in the way of their understanding gender truly.

Whereas it's not something to be understood.

It's not something to categorize.

It's not something for you to clock on other people.

It's, I don't know, it's these young people that are just taking it in stride to adjust themselves to be around their peers and communities more fully and supportive.

And they have a much easier time adjusting their worldview because they don't have that everything needs to be in a box because they're fucking tired of boxes themselves.

And not that they're like trying to burst out of a gender box, but they also don't fuck with the boxes anymore.

So it's much easier for them to throw that shit aside and get down with the new stuff.

Which says to me that it's not a wiring thing.

This is socialized, right?

And we're talking about a generation that is honestly some of the most normative folks we've ever had.

Like ever, ever in all of human history.

Their parents and baby boomers have this really rigid way that they think the world works and think the world should work.

And I'm not sure even their parents' parents were that bad.

And I'm definitely not sure that my generation is that bad.

Gen X seems like 50-50 split, whether they bought into their parents' bullshit or not.

And it's pretty well divided along class lines.

Like, if you had the money to buy into your parents' bullshit, you probably did.

And if you didn't, well, you're hanging out with millennials and younger.

But I'm not, I don't think this is hardwiring.

I think this is just a handful of really shitty generations whose attitude has been exported globally, right?

This has become the globally dominant attitude.

So it's pervasive and it's oppressive.

And if it works for you, I'm sure you have big interest in maintaining it.

But if it doesn't work for you, you're in the boat with the rest of us, and your feet are probably at least a little closer to planted on the ground.

Maybe.

And I think when I said like wiring, it was word that I was using to describe the idea of socialization.

So thank you for saying.

And I mean, that's valid because you do wire your brain when you're being, when you're training yourself and when you're being trained.

Yeah, you're wiring your brain.

Absolutely.

But I think it's undone.

This is also true.

Just when they're when they're when they're 77 and they they're not even interested, have no expectations.

That's why I'm like, come on, you can do it.

You can do it.

Come on.

Get there before your brains turns to mush and I can't get any more in you.

I wish you I wish you Godspeed.

Luckily, I have two older sisters that are super, super supportive that are constantly also having conversations with with our mother.

So it's not just me doing all the heavy lifting.

Having an advocate is priceless.

Having two advocates is double priceless.

But when OK, what?

Yeah, no, it's really it's two advocates.

They they got my back.

These the generational differences between the accepting new ideas and changes to worldviews, I feel like it's so easy for younger people to just be like, actually, here's this other idea.

And they're like, no, that makes sense.

All right.

I'm changed.

You know, I wonder how much of it is just access to information.

Like having that be part of your worldview, having the reality that, you know, new information can actually change your worldview on Twitter.

And it happens often, too.

This isn't like every blue moon.

It's like new information is happening all the time.

And if you get used to that experience of having new information either destabilize or maybe shake your worldview a little bit, that becomes normal.

And once your worldview expands sufficiently to encompass new information as it comes in, you stop having this like earth shattering existential crisis every time you learn something new about the world.

But I can't say that about Boomers.

About Boomers and their parents' generation and even early Gen X, that was not necessarily part of their early life experience.

And there are a lot of them who are trying very hard to make sure that that's not part of their life experience.

Now, obviously, Boomers' parents are done.

The greatest generation is no more.

But Baby Boomers and Gen X seem to struggle real hard with their schemas about the way the world works and how systems function.

And they're like clinging to that, to the exclusion of reality, right?

And it's really disturbing to have a conversation with somebody like that when you're trying, for the, perhaps even just for their benefit, to get them to at least acknowledge your lived experience.

For just a moment, right?

Just a moment of clarity.

And you're dealing with someone who is inactive, consistent denial of reality in other ways.

And when they get good at doing that, as you do through a lifetime of practice, they learn how to do that with just about any new information that challenges their understanding of the systems and the world around them.

And I don't know a whole lot of people who are living firmly planted on the ground that can function that way.

Like, it takes a tremendous amount of privilege to be able to maintain that position.

So, if you don't have the money, or you don't have family, or you don't have some sort of, like, societal insulation from the way the world actually works, you kind of can't get away with thinking that way.

But there is a whole generation of white people, a generation and a half of white people who can afford to function this way.

And in fact, the system in which the systems in which they live were made for them to do that.

It's wild.

The gas lighting is real.

Anything everybody else can do.

Yeah, you have access to all the same stuff that I did when I was your age.

And so we're not even at this point, we're not even having conversations about internal experience, invisible experience.

We're talking about getting housing and meeting your basic needs and really tangible shit with numbers and real people everywhere.

Like, it's not hard to substantiate this stuff, but you're up against this like wall of of it almost willful lack of understanding.

And their whole social system, everyone else around them is doing the same gaslighting, like they're all gaslighting themselves and each other.

And then everyone who comes at them with, wait, that's not how the world works is like, you know, obviously an enemy, and they have to be wrong.

They have to be wrong.

Otherwise, the world isn't what I think it is.

Yeah, that's how brainwashing works.

Isn't it though?

It teaches you, you go in those circles.

You're thinking they do the circle thing.

And I'm like, hold on a second.

They come back around to the same.

And you're like, wow, there's just no, there's no way in.

There is no way into that.

It's amazing.

It's amazing to watch.

It's terrifying because, like, it means my ability to survive.

Like these people are in control of so many aspects of my life.

Fucking wild to have a fucking crazy person making legislation about you out of whole cloth and evicting you from your housing and denying you employment and denying you food, et cetera.

These are crazy people.

These are crazy people.

Crazy cat.

I'm just trying to maintain a relationship with my mom, but I'm not sure it's really worth it.

That got me thinking.

My youngest came out as non-binary at 13, and I didn't really think about, well, you were just talking about makes complete sense.

I mean, for me, the most challenging thing was just getting used to different pronouns.

And the bridge for me to making sense of these different pronouns was they, them.

And that's just, for me, that was just acknowledging, the way it clicked for me was just acknowledging that I don't know.

And to go into every situation, assuming that I don't know.

And what you're pointing out is that for literally billions of people to be able to acknowledge that they don't know is an impossibility.

Because they've got, even if it's complete and utter bullshit, they've got these systems that are completely, very well defined, and their entire worldview relies on those bullshit structures.

It's worse.

It's worse than that.

There is a basic level of intelligence necessary to know what you don't know.

There is also a literal minimum IQ threshold for being able to reason in the abstract, and it's not low.

This is a bad combination, and it's real.

And the problem is that we're talking about a huge percentage of the population.

Like, really big percentage of the population who are incapable of abstract reasoning in the first place, and who don't know what they don't know.

Those are scary ass people.

Yeah, but they're everywhere, and they're in charge of everything, because it's not unusual.

It's not odd.

It's not weird at all.

It's terrifying, but it's really difficult to test, and we can't discriminate.

But wow, and bear that in mind.

When you're talking to people, when you're reading the news about decisions made, when you are dealing with people, keep that in mind.

It simply does not possess vulnerability.

It just makes me cringe.

So what about, you know, some of the difficulties in getting health care because of who's in charge?

Like, AFAB people really have trouble getting hysterectomies sometimes because, you know, said people in charge are like, well, what about your husband?

What about the thing that I don't have and don't want and don't care about?

And cis women are subject to exactly the same bullshit.

Like, it's the worst.

If you have a uterus, you will encounter this.

I'm like, take the baby box out.

We don't like it.

Well, and the thing is, like, first of all, as far as I'm concerned, you should be able to have that done electively.

This should be an informed consent procedure.

Second, like, you know, the super fashy shit that gives rise to all of that.

Like, it is super fashy.

Like, no, no, no.

You need to, we need to keep you fertile.

You need to give birth for the state.

And I'm like, no.

But also, like, say you have endometriosis and this thing is the bane of your existence.

Have it out.

Be done with it.

Be done with it when you're 18.

Don't wait until you're 45.

Live your life free from disability.

Have it out.

This should not be a big deal.

But, but the fash.

But the fash.

It's something that I'm personally having trouble with because there's nothing wrong with my uterus.

I don't, I don't need it taken out.

I'm in Eugene.

I have some referrals for you.

That would be nice.

I need your uterus taken out.

Meet up our friend Nate.

I can hook you up with a guy.

He's actually my neighbor.

It's kind of wild.

It's funny.

And it also like, it also brings up the vibes of like coat hanger abortions, you know, that like not at all the same thing, but it's like that we have to like connect our folks to other people who won't give them a fucking hard time about this super simple thing that should be given a hard time about.

Not at all the same thing.

Very different, but it's like...

Yeah, but the DIY, you know, and mutual aid aspect of these kind of communities is necessary.

I mean, there isn't public support.

And even if the resources exist, there are these, you know, little out of the way secrets.

And for good reason, right?

Like, they wouldn't want to be too public about what they do.

You don't necessarily want to attract attention to yourself as a clinic that provides gender-affirming care in a political environment like this.

So, you know, I get why things are the way they are.

They're just completely fucking unacceptable.

Well, that's why we're all here.

It is indeed.

We do our little parts that we can to be more visible and be like, hey, world, this is...

We're not going to be quiet about this.

I love that existing has become a political act.

I did not necessarily anticipate that that was going to be part of my midlife.

Back in 2008 when I got my vasectomy, as a cis white presenting guy, my doctor gave me a hard time about getting a vasectomy.

Well, you weren't old enough to make that decision.

Whatever.

I was like, I had four fucking kids at that point.

I mean, I'm fucking done.

I'm done.

I should have been done years ago.

But that was also something I wanted to talk about.

Just how even for cis people, having health care, whether it's physical or mental health care, being so heavily gendered negatively impacts people.

I mean, it's severe in some ways.

It distorts the health care pretty heavily itself.

Like for instance, we were talking recently, you were talking about, you were making a case for BPD and narcissistic personality disorder potentially being one and the same, but heavily gendered versions of essentially the same thing.

Sure.

Sure.

And the mention of the difficulty diagnosing ADHD and autism in femme presenting children because of gendered behavior expectations, etc.

etc.

Yeah, it crops up everywhere.

It's shocking that right-leaning cis people can't acknowledge the negative impact of this heavily gendered society.

Well, again, we're back to people who don't reason in the abstract well, right?

So unless this happens to you, if you are incapable of abstract reasoning, you are also incapable of the empathy necessary to see how this can affect other people's material conditions.

Right?

And so you have this feeling in the back of your mind, and you don't want to think this about people because it's really ungenerous, but you have this feeling that people who subscribe to heavily conservative ideologies aren't particularly smart.

And if this study holds true, that you really do have to have an IQ of at least 80, to reason in the abstract, you may actually have a nice ready-made red flag there, like a nice label.

Are you capable of abstract reasoning insofar as it's necessary to have empathy?

Do you have enough imagination to have empathy and to understand how various decisions and systems and processes affect other living things?

There could be a small range there, but it couldn't be a particularly vast range of empathy to extend.

Or a new range.

I don't know, I worry about these people.

I worry about these people.

Just on the whole, in general.

It makes me think of the few family members that my sisters and I don't really talk to anymore.

First, multiple reasons, but we just got to the point where we're like, we're done arguing about these things.

Because in order for there to be a point in arguing with you, there must be a goal or like an idea that you can get to the other side.

And I am not seeing that.

Unable to be creative and empathize with these very complex and abstract issues.

You simply lack that cognitive function to...

What was it?

Abstract reasoning.

You're simply lacking the abstract reasoning needed to extend this empathy to people affected in these issues that we talk about.

And so what's the point in yelling and screaming with you anymore?

I mean, that also is a fair question because some people don't necessarily have the same goal in mind during discourse.

It may be that arriving at shared understanding is not in fact this person's goal.

Listen, my family is very competitive and I've been trying very hard in my life to take that out, not take it out of myself, but control it in ways that serve me.

Yeah.

Be aware of it.

Yeah, no, conversations are to be one, not.

Right.

Yeah, I mentioned that because that's a theme in discussions with my mother.

For her, conversations are not actually things that you have to be able to share experiences or arrive at mutual understanding.

They are opportunities to try to win the floor and direct a conversation and be in charge, be important.

Make the most points of the conversation.

Be heard, be listened to.

Yeah, so always examine what your conversation partners' motives are.

Because at some point, you're wasting your own breath to, like you're just gonna escalate yourself.

Just stay comfortable, protect yourself.

I mean, unless that's your thing, unless you enjoy engaging with people that way, and then, you know, hey, there's lots of people out there that are willing to talk with you like that, but that is absolutely not my bag.

I am not into that scene.

I want nothing to do with that.

So like, unless you're actually prepared to, you know, have a back and forth and maybe try to arrive at a location, I don't really, nah, I'm good.

I talk out of a conversation like that when I can feel myself starting to get like activated at like, I don't know.

Once I pass like a five, I'm like, oh, okay.

I'm getting warning signs that I need to back out of this.

We all have all kinds of triggers.

And you know, they don't have to be like, you know, major trauma triggers.

We all have all kinds of behavioral triggers.

And when you start seeing those those buttons get pushed and those those those lights light up.

Might be time to walk away.

Yeah, I had to I had to walk out on Christmas dinner this year.

Big shock, you know, shocking.

And unfortunately, you know, you're still you're still probably the villain.

Civility politics being as as popular as they are.

If if if you do it wrong, it doesn't even really matter how composed you remain as you're walking out the door.

You did it wrong.

And therefore your message, whatever your message may have been, is completely invalid because you are a horrible human being.

So I'm not saying you're going to win even if you walk away.

It always feels like a defeat after something after you've you've been you've shown your emotions and you got heated.

You feel defeated.

And like, why do I even fucking try?

Why?

What was the I feel like an idiot for losing my cool in there.

I would say that if you feel that way, it was probably a trap.

If you feel that way, it was probably a trap.

And if one has a choice, one does not maintain relationships in which that dynamic exists.

But for most of us, we're talking about family.

And we grow up thinking that our family and our community is absolutely integral to our survival.

And this is true.

This has adaptive value.

This is evolutionary psychology, yes.

And of course, if you are in any way socioeconomically disadvantaged, that is very real.

If you are estranged from your family, you are immediately subject to the effects of poverty.

So we stay in these relationships, even though they're not just non-productive, they're draining, they're harmful.

But that's all we have.

That's our support system, as we see it, right?

Until we form something different.

And that is more or less difficult for any given individual, depending on their level of privilege, disadvantage or disability.

So it's easy for one to lay out the platitudes, you know, oh, well, chosen family is always better, and, you know, everything you just need to let go of these toxic relationships, but, you know, that's easier said than done.

And that's a whole last fucking life journey.

Don't tell me to just do that right now.

That's a plunge off of a cliff.

How am I just going to just do that?

Well, I mean, you're not willingly.

You're not willingly unless something necessitates it.

It's not a thing you're going to do, because it's not a risk that anyone really wants to take.

Or should have to take.

But, you know, sometimes you get a pat on the back that sends you off the cliff.

I have been the pat on the back.

Not in a traumatic way, but I have been the pat on the back that was like, I got you, man.

We're going to jump off this cliff and it's going to be okay.

That's better than the pat on the back.

No, no, no.

It was more like holding hands will jump together.

That's cool.

That's legit.

That shit is tough.

Yeah, and you're not going to do it until it's the last straw, the last resort.

You are forced to do so.

Yeah, I mean, it can take years to let go of certain ties.

And it can take a lot of reinforcement.

Like sometimes you just have to be reminded enough times.

Go back for Christmas dinner or whatever.

And you're like, yeah, this is why I haven't been here since last year.

Well, sometimes you just need enough reminders.

I think this was a great talk.

It was a great chance to get to know you.

And I'd love to have you on again.

I am available.

I am available at various intervals.

We'll catch you on one of them.

That was our talk with Nate Lundin.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Subspace Exploration Project.

Every episode, you can join us for a plunge into kink, non-monogamous sex education, deconstructing the gender binary, queer culture and building healthy communities.

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