Intro to Ronen

Kink and Neurodivergence

This episode is a bit of an introduction to our co-host Ronen. In it Ronen, Clay, & Todd discuss how neurodivergence, kink, and non-monogamy overlap in our lives. And, when we embrace how these things intersect we find that it can immensely improve our communication.

Kink and Neurodivergence Episode Transcript

Welcome to The Subspace Exploration Project, a personal journey into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and building community.

I'm Ronen.

I use they, them pronouns, and sometimes he, which is fine.

Anything but she.

I am a free sexual.

I am ethically non-monogamous, and a relationship anarchist, and a very kinky person.

And what else could I tell you?

I've been in Eugene for about a year.

So I'm not really well into the kink community here yet, but I'm definitely getting to know some people, and would like to continue to do that.

You kind of introduced me to the idea of phrase sexual.

I was gonna ask about that too.

What exactly is that?

Because when you did describe it to me, I'm like, oh yeah, I know that.

I've experienced something like that, at least on a couple of occasions.

It's relatively new term to me as well.

I didn't think it was a thing.

I've always had a issue with sexual relationships with my partners, where I am very, very sexual in the beginning, but I will lose sexual interest.

And a frasexual person is kind of on the asexual spectrum, where we lose the sexual interest, but not necessarily the romantic interest.

And I find myself, the more that I am romantically involved or attached to someone, the less sexual I feel towards them.

And I always thought that there was something really, maybe kind of wrong with that.

Like, what am I, an asshole sexual?

Like light bulbs going off in my head right now.

And I think maybe a lot of people have experienced it on some level.

But for me, it's been every single relationship in my life.

And until recently, someone was like, oh, you're afraid sexual.

And I was like, what is that?

I don't, I've never heard that before.

So yeah, and it's someone that also, they feel more comfortable being sexual with a stranger than with someone they know.

And I've really, really thought about this a lot.

And for me personally, I'd like to think my partners are more important to me than sex.

So I think somehow it gets separated in my mind and my spirit and my body, where I don't feel that it is not important because I know it's important to the other person.

And so I went through relationships where I would try to give more sexual activity, and it just didn't, it didn't feel right.

And it didn't go very well because, you know, if it's not genuine, you know, it's just, it's not, not okay.

So that's something I've been recently dealing with because people who are very sexual oriented are going to get their feelings hurt.

They don't understand that my affection and my love has nothing to do with the actual act of sex.

Before you were introduced to that term and the explanation that comes with it, that must have been really challenging.

Yeah, I really thought that, like I said, not just that there was something wrong with me, but I was like, am I just one of those people that just is like slutty and wants a one-night stand?

Because there's such a stigma with that.

And it bothered me.

It's always bothered me.

Yeah, it still bothers me.

It still bothers me.

As someone who has some experience in kink, and does that also satisfy your partner's needs to engage with them on that level with kink, to maybe offset that sex deficit as someone who really feels like they require that, might call it.

And that's something that I am just on the verge of being willing to explore.

I think that it could definitely be the answer to where I can give something more to my partners, where we have our own special intimacy that they're craving, so that we can be more on the same page and more in harmony, especially sexually and physically.

Can I ask if the sex that you're engaging in with your partners, when you do, is it kinky sex, or is it like another vanilla, I guess?

It could come up with a different way to say it.

Or intensely emotional.

Intentionally emotional and connecting.

When it's with my partners.

If it's somebody new or something, it's usually just sex, and that's all I want.

And I don't necessarily want a relationship.

But yeah, I think it just depends on the person.

I mean, I've experienced a lot of that, meeting someone new and maybe hooking up with them.

And then things start to develop romantically.

And then I'm like, I don't know how it starts anymore.

And now I'm also going to run away.

Bye.

So I know that that's tough.

Do you ever, you don't ever have a, do you have any desires for like more vanilla emotional sex?

Or is it usually just a desire desire for like kinky sex?

It's usually just a desire for like kinky sex.

I don't tend to have that.

I just don't tend to have that need for, for that particular brand of intimacy.

I just like an act of service for the other person and nothing to do with me really.

And I'm such a sub that I will do it just to make you happy.

So I've gotten myself into that situation which really isn't healthy.

And so that's something that I've been.

Luckily, my partner that I'm with right now is very understanding.

My other two partners that I was with were not as understanding.

And so I'm down to one partner right now.

But that's okay.

I'm having to learn to introduce myself as a frasexual from the get-go and make sure people understand what is involved in that.

It's a little bit like telling people, hey, I'm kind of a dick.

But there's intimacy in other ways.

I'll do things for people, acts of service, and different love languages like that.

To me, which is just as important as sex is to some people.

Well, as I step away from the relationship escalator, as I'm stepping away and I'm finding different ways, more rewarding ways to engage with people.

When you talk about this, different needs, different stages of connection and the way it's kind of just separating and you can't quite make a lot of sense of it yet.

That makes sense to me.

I feel like I'm hardwired for ethical non-monogamy.

I've never felt an inclination to be monogamous.

I can be committed to somebody for fucking decades, but not exclusively.

I value my friendships and my various types of connections deeply, but I also meet a lot of people that are fucking awesome, and I want to keep them around, and I want to figure out different ways to engage with them and connect with them.

I don't know if it's a neurodivergent thing, or if it's simply that you're hardwired for E&M, and it's fucking complicated.

It is that.

But I'm very curious because I know that I've met people that...

I know that I want them around, and I want to really get to know them.

And sometimes it starts with some raging fire.

If there's like this vanilla foundation to it, I think the fire goes out pretty quick.

But that doesn't change the fact that I still want to get to know them and find a way to really have a good, solid connection with them.

I think it definitely has something to do with being neurodivergent on the autism spectrum and definitely have ADD.

Definitely.

Well, I think that's one of the things that you and I were talking about, is the overlap of neurodivergence with a lot of the kink in the community.

And I'm also on the spectrum, also ADHD.

And I have always been one of those autistic people who touch is not something that I need a lot of.

When I do crave touch, I do crave it.

But I don't know if you know who Temple Grandin is.

Have you seen the movie about her?

The squeeze machine.

No, she was so real for that.

Yes, she built a machine, because she doesn't like human hugs.

She built a machine to squeeze her, to give her that pressure.

And she got in trouble for it in college, because they thought it was a sex thing or something like that.

But she scientifically tested different students, needing that touch.

And some people really liked it, and some people felt suffocated in it.

So it's just kind of interesting, being on the spectrum, how much touch can you handle or do you need?

And I don't personally need a whole lot of physical interaction.

So I think that kind of overlaps into some of the frasexuality.

I'm sure you can relate to some of that.

Yeah, to some extent, I think it depends on the connection that I have with a person.

But I'm definitely a physical touch kind of person.

But if there's stress between people, that's not my go-to.

Like if it's stress between you and the other person, you don't want...

Physical touch is not a repair for you.

Yeah, or I'm overly stressed myself.

If I'm really in my head, then I definitely...

Do not touch me.

But I also have relatives that are on the spectrum, and they're much more like that.

And I definitely get it, you know.

My youngest is very much like that.

Like from, you know, infancy, they didn't like to be held only occasionally, which is really hard to comfort a crying, whining baby, you know, if you can't hold them because that's how it's supposed to work, you know.

I have three children, and two of them are on the spectrum.

And yeah, definitely the younger two, they did not want to be held.

They did not want to be swaddled, like wrapped up.

Oh no, that was cause for screaming.

And so yeah, they're both kind of, they don't need a whole lot of touch.

And if they do, they'll come to you, and maybe you'll get a hug or something.

And you're like, oh, OK, that's cool.

But that's about it.

That's all you get.

You want to tell us a little bit about your journey into kink and how that relates?

I think it started at a young age, and I think you'll hear that from a lot of people.

That it is, it's you.

I can actually pick out the moment when I first learned what sex was, and I was horrified and fascinated.

And I just kind of began seeking out little things.

And you know, if you go to other people's houses, or like my house was strictly very Christian.

So there wasn't a lot of, there was no porn or anything laying around for me to look at.

But at other people's houses, there was.

And so I would like, I would like look at these things and just kind of think, oh, that's interesting.

Or, you know, back in the day when you could watch the porn channels, but it was all messed up, you know, like that kind of stuff.

I was always trying to, you know, look at stuff like that.

But I think what really changed is when I got in my 20s, and I was with my husband, and we started having girlfriends.

And I started realizing, you know, well, I could do this all the time.

Like, and I didn't know about polyamory or ethical non-monogamy, or, you know, it was just having girlfriends, which we learned a lot from those relationships.

They were kind of rocky.

Because it wasn't done with enthusiastic consent.

And, you know, there were many other factors.

But it did plant a seed.

I knew that monogamy was not my thing.

And I tried it one more time.

I got married again.

Did that a couple of times.

And she was not at all supportive of the ethical non-monogamy or the polyamory at all.

And we got divorced.

And I met my current partner, Chris.

And she's more involved in the kink world than I am.

So for me, it's all relatively new, because I'm just now being really free to explore a lot of those things.

And because there were always fantasies that I had, there was always things I wanted to try, but I never had the opportunity.

And so now in the past two or three years, I've been like, well, what's this about?

What's that about?

I'm looking at everything going, you know, it's kind of like a kid in a candy store.

As to what possible kinks I could explore.

Chris kind of brought you into it.

A little bit, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, because she's a safe person.

Yeah.

I think you need safe people around you, when especially dealing with kink or polyamory or swinging or any of that sort of thing.

Consent, enthusiastic consent, always.

And putting yourself around people who are more experienced, putting yourself around people who are trauma aware.

And setting clear boundaries.

One of the things I always tell people, I have nerve damage on this side of my face, so I'll tell them, if you want to slap me, that's fine, you just can't slap me there.

Just little things like that.

Don't damage the nerve more.

Stuff like that, just little things that you can trust people with.

That makes sense.

I think that's the appeal to me, is that you can get into a space where it's very safe and very trustworthy with who you're around.

And you can explore and expand your awareness.

Yeah, I feel like when I was starting to get more into kink, I was just like, threw myself into the internet.

Because I didn't have that many...

I had a few friends in my life, and I was like, oh yeah, also another kinky person.

But they're just as young and dumb and inexperienced as me.

So no offense to those friends, but it's true.

So I really had to throw myself into the online community of these experienced people who were talking about how to do kink and how to do it safely and how to try these new things and how to build your world and the scaffold that you need to get to navigate all these different kinds of kink relationships.

And that was awesome.

And then finally I was like, okay, I will try to find somebody in real life who is experienced.

And even that is like really fucking intimidating because it's an older man and they're clearly more experienced than you.

So you got to go in.

I felt like I needed to go in with like, I'm seeing through every single piece of bullshit that I possibly fucking can.

I'm there for a fight, you know, until like it's green flag after green flag.

And then I'm like, okay, okay, okay.

You seem kind of chill.

So yeah, that shit's tough.

So it must have been like nicer to have had someone already that you trust and like a lot who's like, do you like to try these things?

And you're like, yes, please.

And always being checked on and asked where you're at, you know, do you like this?

Is this okay?

Yeah, just checking in with each other and those sorts of things, I think, build intimacy too.

And just definitely lots of reading.

Like you said, the Internet is great.

Books are great.

Well, that's kind of why I wanted to do something like this because it gives an opportunity for people in various stages of their journey to talk with each other and to interview more experienced people about the complexities of this.

Because I mean, even though once you get into these different things, polyamory and kink and whatnot, some of it's like, well, duh, this is completely intuitive, but somebody you need to meet somebody who welcomes you with open arms and is willing to mentor you on some level to get to help you realize it.

It's time for you to give yourself permission to open up and be vulnerable with these people.

And they give you, they introduce you to this language to communicate your needs, to ask what someone else needs and to meet them in that safe space that you're creating, whatever it may be, whatever it looks like.

And yeah, I mean, you can jump online and you can read all these different books, but until you meet people and discuss, like I mean, if you go in, because you're still kind of going in blind, if you can't sit and be like, what was this like, like I'm feeling jealous or I'm, you know, I'm fucking scared, you know.

For me, it's often like I'm scared or I'm nervous or I'm anxious about something and I need to vocalize that and the other person deal with that in some kind of way with me.

And a lot of times people are like, okay, what are you going to do about it?

I don't know, that's why I'm talking out loud about it.

Collaborate with me.

Yeah, it definitely takes back and forth.

I feel really lucky with my partner that she is very, very, very sensitive and informed, and her language is very simple and clear and straightforward, and she always seems to know what to say.

That's kind of nice when you're new at something.

Yeah.

That reminds me a lot of the relationship that I have with my partner.

There are still so many times where she's expecting the worst out of the person that she's supposed to love and care about.

And then I'm like, reminder, I'm not those people in your life.

Guess what?

I'm not going to be mean to you.

I promise it'll be okay.

And we can work through things.

And she's like, I can't believe people exist like this, that are like, want the best for you?

And are willing to work on difficult things with you and ask you questions and modify their behavior.

I think that's where so much of what we try to do in kink and in polyamory and in ethical non-monogamy can be used in other relationships and other areas of life because all of the consent and just paying its careful attention and just being a decent human being.

You can learn that from going through these things.

And I think that's where it kind of helps with trauma sometimes, is that you learn, like, oh, I don't have to fight.

I'm not actually unsafe.

Yeah, I don't have to be so tense.

I can be myself.

And sometimes that takes a little bit.

When you first let a wild animal out of a cage, they don't just run off sometimes.

They're just like, what do I do?

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

If you're used to all that turmoil, and then all of a sudden you have peace, it's like, oh, okay.

I can just be here for a little while.

And I think kink is one of the places you can learn to facilitate that in your everyday life.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think a lot of it, part of it has to do with you learn to pick up on people's cues.

Like if they're having a hard time with something or they're really excited about something, you know how to adapt what's going on.

You see a need to adjust what's going on, maybe renegotiate how to move forward or whatever it is that's happening in that immediate moment.

Realizing that even the really small things, they do matter, they do add up.

And in kink, you definitely learn how to not take things personally if someone needs something.

And that's...

I'm really glad to have given up in vanilla and monogamous life is getting hung up and upset about petty shit.

You know, it's like, no, people are just having a bad time.

Doesn't have anything to do with you.

You know, just let them fucking navigate the day, and you know, don't think you're gonna fucking have to break up over it, you know.

Yeah, I think that's one of my partners definitely, with the whole frasexual thing, he definitely couldn't handle it.

Instead of talking with me about it, he walked out.

Okay.

So you gave up.

That to me wasn't very mature.

Yeah.

And it's not that he gave up, it's just like, even if you wanted to give up, at least say that.

Yeah.

Don't just silently leave.

That's terrible.

Embarrassing for him.

But I think he's just not equipped to handle it.

Yeah.

And we aren't taught enough as children how to have proper relationships with people.

Yeah.

Just in general, you know, kindergarten rules.

Yeah.

It's that simple.

Be nice, you know.

Be thoughtful.

Be gentle.

For me, it was be resilient.

Mm-hmm.

But I agree, but also, you know, being resilient also leads to, like, allowing people to do shit that you don't want to actually happen.

It can, yeah.

Oh, I can get over it, you know.

Yeah.

Sure, but why would you, why should you have to?

And I think, I don't know, I don't know about you, I come from a military household, and it's, everything is dress, right dress, you know, everything is, if you have a problem, you need to fix it.

Yeah.

You know, and if I jump, say how, you know, how high, that kind of thing, you know, so when you come from that, you think, well, I got to do everything myself.

Yep.

And reaching out for help is hard.

And that's with any aspect, you know, and so that kind of comes down to when you're talking to your partner and you're talking about kink and stuff like that, you know, that little thing inside of you is going to be like, you don't talk about that.

That's embarrassing.

Or that's too much on the other person or, you know, whatever it may be.

Yeah, a big issue.

Talk like as much as I love to talk about like kink and sex, I also hate to talk about kink and sex, because then I have to say what it is I like actually want and like and maybe deal with someone else not wanting that or thinking not my cup of tea.

And it's hard to take that like, it's not like a whole rejection, but like it feels like light rejection.

It's hard to deal with it.

Yeah.

Military household.

That's fucking tough.

Did not have a military household.

My dad's side was very Catholic, though.

There was that.

But it wasn't raised Catholic.

Maryland is a very Catholic state.

Is it?

I came from a Baptist state.

That's scary.

That's a different type of scary Christian.

My mother is extremely Baptist.

I had a drug problem.

I got drug to church every time the doors were open.

Yeah.

I bet that really helped you.

It.

Yes.

That's where a lot of my confusion with relationships came from.

Yeah.

Because they're so contradictory in their vernacular.

Baptist vernacular?

Baptist vernacular, yeah.

They'll say one thing, and then they do something else.

But it's all the mystery of God, right?

Yeah, I don't think so.

But I think coming from that, it makes your relationships are a little bit harder to navigate, because when you run into someone who is a healthy person, you kind of have to correct yourself.

You're like, oh, I don't have to do that.

Yeah.

Oh, they're not going to nag me.

Oh, they're not going to say mean things to me.

They're not going to...

I'm not being a burden.

Yeah.

Or, you know, things like that.

I think when you get older and you get to explore kink, it can release some of that, because you don't...

you're in a place that's a little freer, and you don't have to worry about being judged so much.

Where people of our generation, or I'm a bit older, a little older, there wasn't a lot of information out there.

And so, like, even though my predilections took root decades ago, I wasn't part of the community, and didn't have the language to communicate what I wanted and what I needed until relatively recently, over the last ten years or so.

But the younger generation, I think, the world is on fire.

We got to get off while we can.

Yeah, the stakes are different for them than it was for us.

There's a greater sense of urgency, so they're not quite as concerned with judgment because you got to fucking enjoy life because it's going to end soon.

It's clearly going to end soon, you know.

So I think it's important that there's a lot more healthy information out there, because if you just go and rummaging around on the internet to try to get information on how to do kink and how to be ethically anonymous in whatever way, shit can be dangerous, and you can put yourself in some really precarious situations and with the wrong people, and fuck yourself up.

And if you're inclined to dabble in kink, there's likely some kind of trauma there already.

So if you get hurt by kink, rather than have a more healthy welcoming experience, then it's just going to set you back many, many years.

It puts you through a lot of hurt, you know?

Bruising the same spot over and over again.

I think that's why it's so important, because if there wasn't people online talking about this shit in fun, accessible ways, showing me that I can actually, yeah, you, me, myself, I can do this, I would not have done it.

I would not have been able to do it.

So it's so important that we have, like, a plethora of people talking about their experiences and how they were able to do it, and they're just like everyone else.

Like, it is not some crazy thing that some people just get to pull off in their life.

It is for everyone.

It's not for everyone, I guess, but it's for everyone in one way and not for everyone in other ways.

Well, I think too, therapists are getting more hip to the kink world, slowly but surely.

There used to be such a stigma.

There still is quite a bit of stigma attached to BDSM and polyamory and all that sort of thing.

I'll just tell you really briefly, in Oklahoma, because I had a girlfriend and a husband, they took my kids briefly.

Because it was, you don't do that.

We were in the Bible Belt.

So that was just considered a mentally fucked up thing to do.

You're not stable if you're doing that.

God forbid your kids have more adult support in their life.

I know.

The kids knew what we were doing in the bedroom.

They had no clue.

No!

Auntie's here.

So there's just so much of that that we have to work through.

But I think that more and more people are refusing to live in the shadows.

And, you know, more queer people refuse to live in the closet.

And I think that the younger generation is making it safer for a lot of some of us who grew up without the language, without the support, without any of that.

I think it's getting better.

Like I said, slowly but surely, there's more therapists that are like, oh, this can actually help some people because they've seen it work.

And some of the books that were recommended to me, The Ethical Slut, is one that most people know.

And one that I like to recommend to people, even though it's not a polyamory book or an ethical dublogging book, is called The Body Keeps Score.

And it's about trauma and how you hold it in your body and how you can release it from your body.

And I think for some people, that release comes when they're in kink and they're doing either impact play or just whatever it may be.

To release that.

And I think that that's healthy.

And I think more people need to feel free to explore that.

And whether they say it's for me or not for me, to have the freedom to say, okay, well, I tried that.

And I don't think a lot of people feel free enough to even touch on it.

Yeah.

So hopefully for doing things like this, we can get in touch with people that maybe normally wouldn't get to hear or see what people's actual experiences are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know for me, I wasn't like...

I'm the type of ADHD where reading is really difficult.

I can't...

I can if I'm absolutely enveloped in something, but it's hard for me to get there.

But so podcast videos and people making short clips were my go-tos for getting that information.

I think I was aware of books that existed, but I never picked them up because I was like, I don't know what's in there.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

10, 15 years ago, my attention span allowed me to really get into audio podcasts, long-form stuff, and I enjoyed it.

But then as I've gotten into podcast production, I realized I will recommend something to the younger generation, and they'll be like, okay, yeah, that sounds cool.

But they can't fucking do it, because it's not in short, you know, bite-sized pieces.

And video format is even better, you know?

And so, like, that's why I think it's important for us, when and where we can, to, you know, we'll do a long-form audio podcast for the olds, and a bunch of short clips for the youngsters, you know?

Because that's how their brains work.

You gotta pair the podcast with, like, subway racer videos.

Do y'all even know what that is?

Nope.

Okay, never mind.

I'm sure my kids would know.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like this genre of, like, short clips that keep coming up, where, like, they're giving you information on one side, and then on the other side, it's, like, pretty pictures and fun things to look at to, like, keep your attention while you're listening.

It's just something that keeps popping up, and I'm like, it fucking gets me.

I don't want it to, but then I'm like, oh, man.

I really am paying attention now because I'm watching this guy do this thing with the chocolate, and I'm listening about diseases.

Sorry.

My youngest watches those.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about now, and I'm like, because it's two completely unrelated things.

No, they have nothing to do with each other.

And I was just like, what are you watching?

Something to look at, something to listen to.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Subspace Exploration Project.

Every episode, you can join us for a plunge into kink, non-monogamy, sex education, deconstructing the gender binary, queer culture, and building healthy communities.

Please comment, like, share, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Acast, and RSS Feed.