Lee Harrington – Safe Venues

Safe Kink Venues

In this episode Todd has a quick talk with Lee Harrington about what makes for safe kink spaces. Pouring over examples of red and green flags in clubs and dungeons, Lee provided helpful insights. What kinds of policies & rules does a venue have? More importantly, what kind of behavior do you see being modeled by those that run the venue and it’s regular patrons?

Lee Harrington – Safe Kink Venues

Welcome to The Subspace Exploration Project, a personal journey into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and building community.

In this episode, I had a quick talk with Lee Harrington about what makes for good, safe kink spaces.

Pouring over examples of red and green flags in clubs and dungeons, Lee provided a lot of helpful insights.

What kinds of policies and rules does a venue have?

More importantly, what kind of behavior do you see being modeled by those that run the venue and its regular patrons?

We were reaching out to the local community trying to find places to play.

And we found that this place, this local place, Dex Ranch, was more or less the only larger dungeon in the area.

And we got mixed recommendations.

Some folks recommended it, and others, they were like, oh, that place is terrible.

And that right there made us curious.

You know, we kind of wanted to find out why there were these mixed reactions to the place.

Because when we looked on YouTube, there was a tour, well, a virtual tour, and an interview with the owner.

And it seemed cool, he seemed cool.

So we went out and we interviewed him ourselves, and we did a tour of the place.

And, you know, he came off as pretty cool, he was really charming.

And the history of the place was, you know, it had been around since like 2018 or so.

And I had gone out a couple times myself, I didn't really participate in anything, I was just checking it out, getting to know a few people, but I didn't really have an opportunity yet to play.

And it wasn't until after the interview that Ronan, Clay and I went out.

We were actually going to meet this group called Naughty Productions, and they were going to put on this Rope 101 class before the party got underway.

And unfortunately, there was an ice storm, and they didn't make it up.

So we were just kind of sitting around, hanging out for a while.

And some of us had a scene planned, and then that didn't happen for a couple different reasons.

But we're hanging out, interacted with Ken, the owner.

And some of the complaints that we had heard from other people in the community kind of manifested throughout the night.

They came up.

They weren't like, there wasn't anything super aggressive.

It was stuff that we had to kind of sit on and reflect.

And like, we were like, realized that we're kind of not OK with the way things happened and some of the things that were said.

The two biggest concerns of ours, and they're kind of significant, but we realized that at least one of them people might disagree on.

One of them is he's got a very loose policy on drinking.

He allows people to drink.

He expects them to police themselves.

I think there are a number of risks to that.

And I think from like if I were running the place myself, I don't think I would allow it because of the physical risks.

And then what it does, the increased risk of consent violations when alcohol is prevalent.

But the second issue was that Clay and Clay's roommate were wearing these red wristbands, which indicated, no, I have no intention of playing that night.

And the owner himself kept teasing Clay and the roommate about wearing the red wristbands and that nobody's going to talk to them.

And it seemed like he was really trying to pressure them to participate in play that night when it was clearly stated on their wristband that they weren't going to.

So we left there really unimpressed.

Our opinion of him and the venue changed significantly.

But I thought I should reach out to you and get your opinion on drinking.

When looking into going to a new club or dungeon, what might be some things you might want to watch for?

What are some red and green flags that you might encounter?

And what are some things that people might not even think of when going into these situations?

And how would you recommend people navigate these things?

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story and your own personal experiences and thoughts in combination with reaching out.

Because it's a really great example for folks listening right now towards figuring out what matters to them.

You brought up that first piece around drinking, and in the Swinger community, there's a cultural norm around the idea of having a drink or two in a social area as a way to be able to socially loosen up as well as have a framework for how discussions happen, say, at bars.

That in the United States, there's a norm there just in how we meet other people, not just in sexual situations.

And so this is the flip side in a lot of BDSM-specific spaces because of two different major reasons that I see.

One is legal, the second is physical risk.

On the legal side, there's a lot of venues where you can't do SM or sex and also have booze present.

And I think specifically of starting out in the Seattle scene, and SM was, you either had a choice of being, staying clothed and being able to do stuff at a bar or go naked and be places that had no alcohol.

So there's a cultural history mixed in with legal issues.

The second one, though, is around physical safety.

If people are doing drugs, if people are drinking, et cetera, there are further risks at play.

And so one of the things that I got in a habit of doing in spaces where people might have had drinks or where drugs might be present, so you're at Burning Man as an example, is asking people straight out, what are you on?

And if people get offended going, oh, well, I also need to know if you're on large amounts of things like aspirin, because I'm going to be spanking you, right?

I don't want to, like, I need to know if you're going to bruise easily.

But that allows us to non-stigmatize people who are choosing to drink and do SM.

But if you know for yourself that asking that question is going to be uncomfortable or answers other than zero are going to be unacceptable, having venues where drinking is actively taking place is a red flag.

But for other people, if what it is for you is the need to be able to have that social drink, having that drinking being a thing is acceptable and that you expect people to police themselves.

And on top of that, there is a system that is being shown where people are being told, actually, I'm not cool playing with you.

You see it modeled that people say, no, that is a green flag.

But note that last place.

People say no.

And this is where the red flag comes up with me, where your second story comes into place, where actively a system was put in by the club to say green means yes, flirt with me, I'm totally interested.

Yellow means maybe, maybe not, proceed with caution socially.

And red means I'm really not interested.

Maybe a totally vanilla conversation about farming is cool, but I'm really not interested in anything kink-wise or sex-wise.

And to have somebody, especially if that policy is in place, have the owner actively tease somebody because of their red band, that is not just a red but a crimson flag for me.

Because that's somebody saying, oh yeah, we put a policy in place, but the policy is bullshit.

And in which case, that's just strutting your stuff and saying, oh, I totally have a safety system in place.

You don't actually.

You are showing that you actively disregard those things.

And so any time I see an event or a venue that says this is what we do, but then follows up by not doing those things, that's a red flag.

But unfortunately, you don't always know that answer until you're there.

And that sucks.

And that sucks because you can't know that one ahead of time.

Even if people are giving you those mixed reviews, you can't always know that one until you're there.

I was talking with this morning with someone else in the community.

They actually kind of know the owner, and they had some of these concerns as well as some other things that they picked up on regarding the owner's personality.

What they were pointing to was that this guy, he's a bit led by the shiny base ego rewards of what he has going on there, and he's failing to properly, effectively dominate his space.

Like in creating a safe space for the people he is participating in.

He does actively play during the parties, but that's as a top.

But as somebody who is creating a safe space for people to participate in these activities, it's like a higher level of responsibility.

Absolutely.

That he doesn't appear to be, to either grasp or respect or be interested in during this time.

Yeah, well, I think one of the big things when we talk about a venue is, is this a for-profit venture?

Is this somebody opening up their house, right?

And then the whole scale in between.

Because I have slightly different expectations.

I think with all of them, some of my red flags include are people, is the owner or party host playing with first time people?

And if the answer is yes, I go, ooh, maybe not.

And there's a difference between playing with someone and saying like, oh, have you never been spanked here?

Would you be interested in a demo?

But we don't get into it.

There's not a sexualization of it, et cetera.

Because if that is happening, there's a chance that this is being a space that is being used to take advantage of a person's place in power.

If we then add money on top of that, that is a double red flag.

Now the flip side to that, the green flag is when I see somebody who's an owner goes, Oh, you've never been spanked.

Can I introduce you to an experienced person?

Usually not of your orientation.

Right?

Can I enter?

Oh, you're a heterosexual woman.

Can I introduce you to a pro dom that might give you a short spanking?

That to me is a huge green flag.

It means the person understands power dynamics.

It means the person has social connections with the people in their own community and that they understand that newness combined with an erotic orientation for somebody more experienced can have a lot of layers to it.

I love that green flag.

With then an additional green flag that I find so great, which is the person saying, Oh, you're interested in trying out new things.

Here are some resources for you.

And either on their website, which is a great one, or during introductions or even in a casual conversation can say, Here are some local munches.

Here are some great books that I recommend.

And a green flag to me of somebody saying, Here are some other resources other than me.

I am in like Flynn.

No, that makes complete sense.

And I have to agree to that approach.

In this instance, there's like a mishmash.

Like it used to be in his house.

Then it was, he converted this, what used to be a horse arena into this pretty large dungeon.

He does have, he does invite educators up to do little teaching sessions, you know, whether it be Impact 101 or rope play, you know.

And it seems like sometimes his focus is a bit more professional and a bit more host-like.

But like I said, he plays, and he invited Clay and Clay's roommate.

He approached Clay when Clay's Dom turned away, left, about doing a scene, kept suggesting doing it that night, even though Clay had the red wristband on.

Also knowing that Clay and Clay's roommate were very new to Kink, or, you know, a year or two of experience.

But he wanted to be the person to do this impact on Clay.

So, yeah, there's...

It seems like he's...

I don't know if he was getting swept up, and this is potentially something that's occurring a lot for him per the complaints from other friends.

But he gets swept up in the party, and he's not grounded in host mode.

Right, and I think that's an important thing for all people at an event, whether you're an attendee, whether you're a host, is to stop and pause and go, okay, what is my role here?

What is my purpose in being here?

And like I said, if you are the kind of person that a drink or two is going to help you be more social, oh, your role here is to find a way to be able to connect and ground to the party, to be present, and to be able to make decisions from a place of psychological sobriety.

And that's what your role is, and that can tell you, oh, maybe a drink is one thing, four drinks might not actually be safe for me.

And if this is a venue that's going to hand me four drinks and still say, oh, it's okay for you to go to that orgy, consider that as a flag or not, right, based on what you center yourself into.

But if you're the party host, your role is going to involve a lot of layers.

It's keeping all your attendees safe.

It's making sure to check your place of power in this social construct.

It's about setting and modeling appropriate behavior for other attendees who are new.

Because people are going to look at you and go, oh, that's what normal looks like.

And so if people see a party host coming up to people with red bands and going, oh, the red bands isn't really a thing.

Red band actually means blank insert concept here, because that's what I saw the party host do.

And the same thing happens with people who are educators, podcasters, individuals who have been of some form of notoriety, right?

You've been a player in your community for more than three years.

And it's really, that's community variant.

For some people, some communities, it's 20 years.

For other communities, one year actually might be a lot.

But whatever it is, if you're a more experienced player, people are going to look to you and go, oh, that's what normal looks like.

And so to take a pause, if you're going to a party, to go, okay, what is my role here?

How do I enter it with full awareness?

And how do I check myself before going in the door?

And you know what?

There's some behaviors.

I don't do it what I call 101 parties or 101 spaces.

Because I know that people are going to look at my behaviors and try to model after it.

There's certain types of play.

For example, I was just talking to one of the hosts of the Gateway Parties at The Crucible, which is a BDSM club in Washington, DC.

And I was talking to one of the hosts, and they said, you know what?

I don't do any needle play at the Gateway Parties ever.

Because it sets it up as being a thing that's a norm for the entry-level parties.

And that's actually a bit physically and emotionally unsafe for a lot of folks to set that as a 101 or even 201 level expectation.

And they and I were talking about it, and they said, you know what?

If I went to a 101 level party and I saw extreme play happening, that might be a red flag for me, actually, about that party as well as that venue.

That maybe that's not actually a place that I feel like is setting and calibrating their levels in a way that actually is physically and emotionally safe for all the attendees.

And I find that a really interesting concept, having talked to other people attending 101 events and seeing people who are hosts.

This was a different conversation.

Seeing some of the people who are not the host of that party, but at a 101 party doing really extreme play, because it was the only place that these people who are oftentimes DMs or people helping run the venue, it's the only night they had off.

And so they went, well, it's my only night I have off.

I really just want to do my kind of play that I like.

And I get where that desire comes from.

But at the same time, it was emotionally and physically, to some degree, endangering these 101 players.

And when I saw that happen, I went, wow, that's actually a red flag in this moment for me.

Not because of the party hosts, not because of the party, but because people weren't calibrating them to each other.

We weren't on the same page.

And so I think for me, the green flags in this are, is the play I'm seeing in alignment with the party theme?

And if it is, and I go, oh, this is a sex party, and I'm seeing sex happening at it, what a great thing in alignment.

Or this is a sex party that says it does safer sex encouraged, and the venue is paying for condoms and dental dams and gloves.

I see such a great green flag.

I love those moments of pausing going, this is in alignment.

But if what it is is it's a 100% sex party, but I walk in and all I'm seeing is heavy SM and no sexual play, I might consider that a yellow flag.

That this isn't in calibration with what was advertised, and I might take a moment to go to the party host and say, hey, it was advertised as a sex party.

I'm seeing some heavy SM and impact play here in no sex.

What do you actually usually see here?

It's a chance for me to check in.

And then it becomes even a red flag if what I'm seeing is no sexual play of any sort happening, but what I'm seeing is the party host initiating heavy SM.

And then you add to that, oh, and they're doing it with attendees.

Next level, oh, and they're doing with attendees who've never been to any party ever before.

Suddenly, that's four levels of me being aware of a mismatch.

Yeah.

That's a few of my thoughts.

No, no, that's immensely helpful.

I mean, there's always going to be conflicting reports.

Oh, yeah.

It makes sense that a lot of the time people are, you're just going to have to go there.

But depending on where it is, how big it is, the theme, you might want to attend with others that you know.

Yes, absolutely.

But yeah, you can't really, you often won't really be able to gauge what it's like until you get there.

You can't really go off those conflicting reports, because sometimes people just have a bad time.

Exactly.

And it's hard to sometimes know what was, I had a bad time, and these parties are problematic or these people are problematic.

Now, as a transgender person, if I hear a party report that says, oh, these people are transphobic, I tend to actually ask some follow-up questions.

I say first to that person who told me, wow, thank you for letting me know, because it's actually pretty courageous for somebody to say, I received some hateful things.

That actually takes a lot of courage, whether that's around racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, or ableism as examples.

But what I might then ask is, would you be open to sharing what about it was transphobic?

And if the person says to me, oh, well, it was a men's only party, and because I didn't have a penis, I wasn't let in the front door, I'm like, oh, that is transphobic.

But if the person says to me, well, I went to the men's only party, and nobody wanted to play with me, clearly they were transphobic, it might actually just be that you weren't that people's tastes of who attended that night.

And it's hard to know for sure, but the first one is clearly transphobic.

The second one is a question mark, because I've been to places that people told me were transphobic, and what it turned out was that, oh, the people who played with trans folks just weren't there that night, but they were there the next weekend.

And that there are six guys who are totally hot for trans guys, and another six guys who are totally into fat dudes, and another six guys who are totally into twinks.

And it just happened to be all the cisgender twink guys that were people into twinks that were there that night.

It just was what it was.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's where it becomes tricky, right, is those kinds of party reports.

But if the party report is, yeah, I saw the party host get sloshed, and I've been to those parties, where I saw the party host get sloshed and hit on people and, you know, be wanting to fuck people left, right, and center, and wasn't, oh, and as a note, those things can actually be okay if the party host then says to one of the other party, you know, like somebody who's perhaps a party moderator, and says, hey, I'm going to go play.

Can you step up and take over my role?

Because I'm going to go play with these three people over here.

To me, when I see that, I go, what a great party host.

They know somebody else that they can trust.

They hand it over.

They let other people over here that they're handing it over.

And then they go play in a corner with people that they have pre-decided who they're going to be playing with.

What a great party host.

Because they know they want to play, and they never get a chance, and finally, some people that they consider at their level are playing with them.

How sexy, how in integrity are they to step out of their own way so that the party can be taken care of?

As compared to somebody just getting a slosh and hitting on everybody left, right, and center.

One is in integrity.

The other is problematic.

Definitely.

Thank you for hopping on with me, even despite your injury or your near injury.

And I appreciate it.

So as a note, for people who don't know, I live with complex medical realities, and we were talking before about making this call happen, and I'm like, I can tough my way through sitting up in a chair, but can we do this?

And I love the fact that here you are on a podcast and that people with podcasts make the assumption that you have to do certain things, and you were like, no, it doesn't really matter.

What matters is your voice and your presence, and so the fact that I'm on my side and we're still able to have a great conversation is great modeling that to be sexy, awesome kinksters, you can lay on the ground, you know, and I know folks who are quadriplegic, who are in our scene, that is not my personal reality, but my spine has challenges sometimes.

And I'm just doing a call out to all of our quads who are out there listening or watching.

You are not alone in living a life where you can be hot and sexy and taking care of your body.

So thank you so much for having me on the show on a day where my back is doing its thing.

Not a problem at all.

We love having you on, and we love your valuable input.

You made a lot of great points, and we appreciate you immensely.

I'm sure we'll bug you about other things in the future.

I love it.

I love this plan.

All right, y'all take care.

All right.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Subspace Exploration Project.

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