When Scenes Go Sideways
When Scenes Go Sideways Episode Transcript
Welcome to The Subspace Exploration Project, a personal journey into kink non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression and building community.
This is another kink round table.
With just us.
Just like it was last time.
Yeah.
Just in a different place.
I like these talks, it's a lot more laid back, casual, we get to get personal.
It's different when we're interviewing people.
We don't get to do the yap in when we're interviewing people.
This is our time to yap.
This is The Subspace Exploration Project.
I'm Todd.
I'm Ronen.
And I'm Clay.
But I wanted to talk about when scenes go sideways.
Because all kinds of shit can go wrong.
Even less risky stuff, but especially the riskier stuff, shit can go sideways.
Feelings can get hurt, bodies can get hurt, trauma can occur, or people can be re-traumatized, trying to achieve, get some kind of therapeutic effect out of their kink.
I thought it would be good to talk about personal experiences, thoughts that we might have on what to do, how to respond when things go sideways.
Great question.
The same thing we always come back to is communication and boundaries, and being clear about your boundaries, and making sure that you have a really good understanding of each other before you start.
Yeah.
I think there's that preparation that you do with the person beforehand, and I think there's also stuff that you want to prepare for when something happens in the moment.
Because you can know things about yourself ahead of time, and communicate that, share that with the other person.
But you don't always know if it's going to happen, when, or how, maybe.
And the tough thing is how to respond in the moment to it, to call attention to it.
And that can be a whole other ballgame of difficulty communicating your feelings about things.
Especially if you're in a different headspace than you normally would be.
Well, yeah, it takes you a while to even identify, like, there's something going on here that I wasn't expecting, you know.
I mean, you could be right there on the edge of just some kind of horrible experience, because you're like, you're confused.
You're like, it kind of feels similar, or maybe it doesn't.
But it could potentially be very similar to things you've experienced before.
But you're like, this is weird.
I'm not sure why it's weird, but something's going on here.
And then all of a sudden, like, you find yourself in tears or something, you know?
You know, just because it's all wrong.
You hit this threshold, and you're like, this is fucked up.
I don't know why, but it's fucked up.
That's when I like the red light, green light, yellow light thing, you know?
Like, if you can learn to use it in the moment, like when things are happening, and say something like, yellow, you know, let's just back it down for a second.
But I think it's really important to get used to exercising those yellows.
Like, even if nothing's out of place, nothing hurts too much or is going to hurt too much, just practice using your fucking yellows, you know?
Yeah.
I've always had a very hard time with yellows, because I'm like, I want to know what's going to happen.
Like, I want to know how this is going to affect the situation.
What if I don't know how to further elaborate on the yellow?
And, you know, so there's, there was all that unknown.
And I've tried to throw in, like, more things to say other than, like, red and yellow.
But then I was like, that's just too many things to remember in the moment.
Like, what's this one mean?
And, like, you know, if we come up with, like, a code system to indicate what exactly should happen.
And then I was like, that's just too fucking complicated.
And probably things won't always be the same.
But I like the idea of using your yellows more often, just to just, you know, this is like this, this cheek has had enough.
Let's move on to the other cheek or just like give it a rest for a second and come back to it later.
And you can have fun with it in the moment, too, I think, just.
Even if you just stop and, like, everybody drinks water, and just for a second.
Yeah.
And if you're still in the mood, then you can continue on.
Yeah.
I mean, we're all trying to escalate things.
You know, we're trying to hit some kind of peak.
And especially subs, they don't want to be the one who ruins it, you know.
But for safety's sake, because you can't really hit those peaks if you actually keep getting yourself into situations where it's too much.
If you're pushing yourself too far prematurely without nudging up your tolerance for things, you're screwing yourself over.
You're not expanding your threshold for pain.
You're expanding your tolerance for pain or whatever it might be.
If you're not respecting your body and your emotional state and making sure that your partner or partners are ready for you to communicate, I need to pause, you know.
But recently, I had a partner that we kind of had an unexpected experience.
They seem to have like a...
Instead of being in subspace, they were actually getting really anxious about something we were trying out.
And it wasn't really working.
And it was weird because it started off, it was like almost going okay, but then it was heading in a direction, they weren't sure why they were having this response and they were getting upset.
And they were having a hard time wanting to stop it.
And I'm like, you know, it's perfectly fucking okay.
Let's shut it down.
Let's figure out what's going on here, you know.
Sure, both people are in a situation like that, are going to be disappointed that plans change, but it's far more important that you're not causing any kind of real physical or emotional harm in your play, you know.
Yeah, I find myself getting, like, sometimes I can get, when I get like hit particularly hard, I can, it kind of snaps me out of like a little like fun time, and it kind of like brings me into a more of a heightened, not afraid, but like...
It makes me mad for a second, I think.
I wish I knew a different word to articulate how it made me feel.
But I can relate to the like getting worked up and like becoming anxious about it to a point where it, for me, it caused me to get scared.
Not necessarily feel unsafe or not trust a partner, but I was just feeling scared.
And I think that's an important distinction to make sometimes, is that like you can still...
I mean like ideally you don't...
Or maybe you do want to feel scared.
That's totally okay if that's part of your play.
If you want to get to a space where you're scared, just as long as you're like trusting your partner and like what their ability to handle when that does happen.
How would you like that to be handled?
How are you going to communicate it when it gets to a place where it's not a fun, scared for me?
I don't want to be scared.
Well, I mean, isn't that what mind fuck play is?
I mean, it's scared, you know, finding various ways to scare the fuck out of your partner.
Yeah.
You know, it's not something I've ever thought to dabble in, but you do, I think it's important to know how to handle things because there's any number of ways that a partner could accidentally find themselves experiencing some kind of fear.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, you may have made a mistake or a number of mistakes might have been made, but it doesn't have to be devastating to the play if there's accidental fear experienced, you know.
But to be able to respond in a supportive, safe way is very important, you know, to hit pause, figure out what needs to happen, maybe give it a little while, or see if you can address it right then, like what caused this, you know.
How did we get to this state?
I have personal experience with, and I didn't have the language like green, yellow, and red lights and stuff like that, but I did tell someone to stop, and they did not.
It continued on, and that was horrid.
That was horrid.
Because there was no communication there, there was no respect there, there was no anything that, you know, you would think you would want in that kind of situation.
There was none of that.
And that's, you talk about a scene going sideways, and that definitely was a side-by-side-winder.
I think that's why these kinds of discussions are so important, because there's people out there that are putting up with stuff, or they're doing stuff, and they're not thinking, you know, that it actually could be harmful.
Did they respect and just not know that you were calling for it to end?
No.
They straight up just deflected my nose.
Yeah, that's not acceptable at all.
I've been on the other side of that.
It was too much for me, and he knew it was too much for me, but it continued anyway.
I can't stress how important it is to be able to trust, on the deepest level, the people that you're doing these kinds of activities with, especially these higher risk activities.
You're putting yourself in a very vulnerable state, physically and emotionally, and yeah, you need to be able to say, let's fucking pause, and for them to not enjoy ignoring you, one, but to honor your safety and not take it personally if you need to fucking hit pause.
And I didn't know, because I didn't have any information about that sort of lifestyle.
You know how some, there's these, I hate to say it, the typical cis male guys that think they're doms, and they're not.
They don't have the years of experience and study, and you know, just giving a fuck about the partner.
Yeah.
What they need.
Yeah, I've had a handful of experiences, not with like the cis white males that think they're doms, but like the cis white males that are aggressive.
I don't know, like just, I don't think any of them would have described themselves as dominant.
Maybe they would have described themselves as dominant.
I don't know.
But yeah, that type where it's just like, they think it's just like, oh, I just fuck you up, right?
And then it's fine.
And like, and you're supposed to like hate it, or quote, hate it.
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
No, I do hate it actually.
Yeah, no, that's, it's unacceptable.
There's an expectation, I feel like people expect themselves to, or at least I had an expectation of myself to know what was going wrong before I said anything was going wrong.
And I just could never figure that out in the moment.
Never could.
And so I would never fucking say anything.
And that was never good for me.
So yeah, it's totally okay to call a yellow or a pause and not know why.
It's okay to just sit and be quiet or like scale it back, remove the chains or the bondage, whatever.
Chillax yourself a little bit, do what you need to do to take a step back.
Give yourself a moment to re-regulate and come back down.
You were saying you experienced fear.
What was going on and how long did it take you to figure out?
I didn't start to feel fearful until I had gotten hit a bit hard.
We were using, I can't remember what kind of whip it was, but we were using some sort of like dragon tail or single tail whip or whatever.
And it had got me on my shoulders, I think.
Some of my more sensitive spots on my back are like my shoulders and like anything that gets on my hips and like wraps around.
Any kind of wrap around fucking sucks in my opinion for now.
But it had gotten me on my shoulder and that fucking hurt.
And I was preparing for like the next one.
And that was a wrap around.
I think it was like a few hits later and it was a wrap around.
But I was still existing in this state of like, oh God, these are so painful.
When's the next painful one?
When's the next really painful one going to be?
And so I started fixating on that moment of like, where is it going to be?
When is it going to be?
How hard is it going to be?
Is that going to be the one that makes me go yellow?
Or at that point, it should be a fucking red, because I'm already yellow at that point.
If I'm in that state of mind, I should be saying yellow, even if I don't fucking know when the next like...
I didn't know I was having that moment of like, I don't know exactly what's going on, so I'll just wait and find out.
Just pause for a sec.
And it was fine.
There was a...
It was the point, I think the point where I was like, okay, this isn't gonna fucking work.
Where he was behind, he was getting a different tool.
I couldn't fucking see anything.
And he had like hit it on the ground, and it like made me jump so bad.
And it made me start crying more.
And I was like, oh, okay, we have to stop.
And that was at the point where I was like, I'm feeling, looks at the wheel of emotions, fearful.
And yeah, we laid down and I cried.
I broke into tears for a little while.
And then it was, then I felt okay.
I never, I didn't feel unsafe.
And I wasn't like not trusting that my partner would like be there for me and like help me figure it out or like bring me back.
I just was like, my body was in a state of fear and I didn't want to feel that way for this type of scene or thing.
I don't want to feel that way.
Yeah, depending on the implement, they could be very unpredictable.
Those whips, those can be troublesome.
Whips are troublesome.
I mean, you can have really short whips that you can control pretty, like a little jagged tail or something.
You can control that reasonably well.
But I feel like those bigger ones are a lot more difficult to know exactly where that's going to go.
Because with a flogger or a paddle, you're like, yeah, I'm aiming for this area.
You can aim for an area with a long whip, but there's the rest of the long whip to go all over the body, anywhere else.
You know those wraparounds?
Fuck off.
Yeah.
It was seen not that long ago, and it might have been kind of similar.
There was exploration.
We were venturing into new territory, and we got to a point where their response was, they were cussing at me.
And I found it fucking amusing.
It was hell.
They had never done that, but they were like, fuck you.
And I'm like, I loved it.
I mean, it was kind of a sign that things weren't going right, but for a scene not going perfectly right, you want to be able to laugh, and enjoy.
It seems like they were getting it out, getting the emotion out through the fucking cursing, because I know when I have stuff at toe, sometimes you get a pain that you just want to scream and shout, and sometimes I bump into a wall, and I'm ready to punch the wall.
And I'm like, don't bump into me.
I know I asked for this whipping, but don't hurt.
I don't want to like it.
I don't like it.
No, and once I got there, I was like, you know what?
This is something to actually strive for, these certain kinds of scenes.
It was an impact.
I'm like, I'm okay with making this the goal, depending on what we're doing.
They're pretty darn submissive, but getting them to the state where they're cussing me out, they feel comfortable cussing me out.
It was really fucking, it was golden.
I take cussing someone out over tears and crying.
That sounds better.
To deal with the pain.
Depending on how things are going, I can really appreciate the tears and crying, though, too.
There is something cathartic about crying in scene.
Even though a few times that I've cried in scene have been...
Half of them have been fearful, and half of them have been...
Like...
Like a release.
Yeah, like I'm not...
I think the difference between the times where the crying has been a release and the crying has been being fearful and not having a good time is more uncertainty.
The more uncertainty there is in a situation, the more that pain starts to turn into fear, fearfulness, fear of the unknown.
But sometimes that can...
If there's more control in the situation, it feels more like a release, like I'm controlling what's happening.
Because if I'm restrained and I can't see, it makes it so much hard to...
If I really needed to, I would just roll away.
I would go away.
So...
I don't know.
That's something that I haven't thought about.
I haven't thought about it until now.
And maybe there's something different in there that I'm missing.
Do you think it's a matter of...
At least in some instances, it might be a matter of pacing and communication.
Like, whatever communication does exist in that moment, even if it's not verbal, maybe it's physical.
Which is something that I was actually...
I've been doing these rope classes, and one thing they keep pointing to is because people can go non-verbal and not necessarily in a negative way, but verbal communication is out the door for a while, because they're just in rope space.
Because depending on the different flavors of subspace, a person can get to...
It's good to have a number of different ways of communicating, not just your verbal agreement, your cues that this is going on the way of the other, but a physical touch, hold their hand or something to communicate, to check in with them.
And they know to squeeze or whatever, for however long or squeeze hard, if there's something wrong or whatever it is, work out a system.
Learning each other's body language.
Yeah, I mean that breathing, body language...
I think for me, it would be hums.
Once I start to get into a subby or a ropey headspace, I'm very sighing on every exhale or every other exhale.
And the times that I have gone non-verbal, I feel like it would be a lot easier to communicate through like a yes or no type of humming.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I want to know more about the other non-verbal ways to communicate when you're in rope space.
Yeah, it's definitely something to work out.
There are a number of different options.
And the thing is that if you're non-verbal, you can agree with anything ahead of time, but you have to actually figure out what you're capable of doing without pulling yourself out completely.
What actually works rather than come up with a plan and then not be able to execute it.
There's the theory, there's the plans, and then like we're talking about, shit changes, doesn't go according to plan.
We need to be able to adapt.
And you need to be able to listen to, you know, or observe the cues of your partner, you know, check in, listen to their breathing.
Sometimes their breathing changing can be a good sign.
Sometimes it can be bad news, you know.
But you need to know that.
What means what?
Have more sex about it.
Yes.
Be scientific, be scientific about it.
Put them under a microscope.
Absolutely everything they do.
In scene, I'm used to a lot of music going on.
When I remember to hit play, there's music going on.
But then you get to a certain activity and impact, especially, and I have to hit pause on the music.
Yeah.
Because I need to hear any humming or changes in breathing.
I need to pay very close attention to that.
I can't really have the distraction of music.
And it could be subtle changes, too.
You'll be able to hear very clearly what's going on with them.
Noises can sometimes change.
There's definitely...
I know I have a different...
The sounds that I make when I'm in pain, but it's okay, but in pain in a not okay way, I know that they're different.
And sometimes people can pick that up if they're paying attention and putting effort towards it.
But some people are not in it to have that kind of knowledge of you, and that sounds really boring.
How would I get the best fuck, you know, if I'm not...
for not getting a science into it, you know?
It's not always about the best fuck.
It's about growth and exploring and several other things.
Sure.
Picking the scene up afterwards, like after you've paused, if you want to continue, I don't know, I like to be humorous because I feel fucking awkward in situations that make me feel like I'm ruining something, womp, womp.
So the way I deal with that is to just be silly about it.
So use humor.
Humor is important.
Plug Lee Harrington for the joys and laughter that you find in kinky fuckery.
That's all I wanted to say.
That's important, I think.
If things really did go wrong, like in any substantial way, feelings might be a little tender, depending on the person, the people involved, their dispositions.
Somebody might really have their feelings hurt, or they might both feel bad in various ways.
I think if you can, take a moment to get close, and check in, connect.
And something like humor is good to break the ice and be like, hey, we're trying to have fun here.
Maybe the tone isn't always humorous, and lively.
Sometimes it's dark and ugly and disgusting.
But that doesn't mean you have to put on a brave face and get through something.
Maybe to a certain extent, you want to do that.
But there's a time to be brave and power through, but there needs to be a foundation, some amount of certainty about where you're at, who you're with, and how everything's going, so you can push through and push those boundaries for yourself or for your partner.
If you're unsure, if you're feeling nervous in an unfamiliar way, hit pause.
And maybe don't try to push boundaries if you're feeling uncertain.
For example, throwing up on cock, wall giving head, power through.
As long as you can.
As long as you can, as long as you can.
As long as you can.
Because sometimes when you start throwing up, you can't stop throwing up.
You know.
Yeah.
Sometimes you can just swallow it and just keep going.
Sure.
You know.
Power through a boot and rally.
You do it, like listen, if you've done it for liquor, you can do it for the strap or any other phallus, okay?
Choke on it.
You can do it.
That's my motivational speech for you, for all of you.
What is the most disgusting thing you've experienced in recent history?
Recent history?
I could tell you a lot of things about the restaurant I work at.
Oh, fuck.
There's been quite a few times, actually, that I have thrown up on a dick.
And...
Oh, here's a really good one.
I threw up...
I had just eaten McDonald's, and I threw up on this dick as it was coming in my mouth.
And so I had both the throw up and the cum in my mouth.
McDonald's, French fry, Mcnugget, cum cocktail throw up.
And I like...
But again, I powered through for a little bit because I was like, I'm not letting all of this cum go on my fucking carpet.
So I'm going to see how much can continue to fit in here, and then I will swallow this and we will be done.
And that's what I did.
Thank you.
Yeah, it was difficult.
And I will do it again.
I'm sure your partner really appreciates the length you go through to swallow that cum.
It better.
I mean, I don't think everybody would do that.
No.
I mean, like, but then what's the alternative?
Letting all the throw up and cum go on the floor?
Like, what do you...
I guess just letting the cum go on the floor, swallow your throw up.
I mean, are you able to sort it?
No, you just...
Listen, you...
I can't explain the mechanics of it, of how you need to vacuum your mouth around the cock so that the throw up stays in your mouth, but you can pull off of it so that all the throw up comes with you.
And then, you know, if there's cum there too, the cum can keep cumming or it cannot.
Either way, it's not getting in the mouth because I'm off of there now.
With throw up consumed, like, concealed in my mouth and I'm swallowing it.
That's lovely, that is.
It sounds like some quitter shit.
Quitter shit?
I would say I've never done that.
That's the part that's...
I didn't do that.
I did it at the end, actually, at the very end.
But I held on for as long as I could.
My mouth is full.
And you, Ronen?
I've had a similar experience.
Yeah, that was just...
But I wasn't ready for it.
I was...
It was a little group thing, you know.
He finished and I swallowed.
And I was proud of myself.
And then all of a sudden, I was like...
And they're like, are you okay?
I'm like, yeah, good.
That was not good.
Yeah, there's that like first...
after swallowing a liquid from somebody's body.
I wasn't ready for the lurch though.
I asked, but I think my problem is that I don't get grossed out.
I can swallow a load, nothing without flinching.
I drink piss, I'll bathe in piss.
Or, you know, someone squirting it all over me.
I don't have a problem with it at all.
And I have a general sense of what other people might be grossed out by.
But...
He's unfazed.
I'm not fazed at all.
Give me that brain.
I can really enjoy making a terrible, terrible mess that most people find disgusting.
But I mean, most of the time, those disgusting messes that I helped make are things that most other people, if they saw it, they'd be like, oh, that's fucking cool.
But if they were in the middle of it, they'd be like...
Love a mess, hate a mess.
Sometimes when you're in the moment, the mess doesn't really matter, and then later, you do with it.
So what did we learn?
Use your yellows more often.
Yellow even if you don't know why you're yellowing.
If your mindset, mind state has changed a bit, and you're feeling unsure, just yellow.
Learning subtleties, body languages.
Listen to, watch your partners, see if they're behaving in any weird way.
They're responding differently than expected.
We didn't even touch on significant physical emergencies that can occur.
But this isn't a safety episode, this is headspace.
But if something has changed, notably changed, is out of place, then it's okay to pause, it's okay to put it off to the next scene, or just pause and check in.
And make sure that everybody's okay, and that you're not damaging them.
Make a plan about what your yellow means, or red means, if you want, or don't.
Make up more words, keep it simple.
Don't get too nuanced about it.
I got carried away.
Don't get too nuanced, but go ahead, shade in some of that gray area, if you would like.
And work on an alternate ways of communication, you know.
Yeah.
Especially when you're exploring new things, anything that was with risk of somebody going nonverbal, especially come up with different ways of communicating.
And test them out before you get too deep into it.
Yeah.
Because you may not notice that what might not work until you get there and you try it.
Harmonize goodbye.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Subspace Exploration Project.
Every episode you can join us for a plunge into kink, non-monogamy, sex education, deconstructing the gender binary, queer culture, and building healthy communities.
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