Shame & Sharps with Win

Kink Roundtable

This week Clay, Ronen, and Todd had a chance to sit down with the fabulous, wonderfully caring and insightful Win! Win is an NDN sex educator and queer leather freak who likes to facilitate joy and get blood on its hands.

As You Like It: https://asyoulikeitshop.com/

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Episode Page: https://www.subspaceexploration.com/subspacepod/shame-sharps-win

Shame & Sharps w/ Win Episode Transcript

This is the Subspace Exploration Project. 

Join us for a deep dive into kink non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression and community building. In each episode, we're deconstructing the gender binary, celebrating queer culture and creating a safe space for sex education, all while learning from authors, educators, mental health professionals, and folks like you and me.

This week, we had a chance to sit down with the beautiful, wonderfully caring and insightful Win! Win is an Indian sex educator and queer leather freak who likes to facilitate joy and get blood on its hands.

Let's check it out.

So really quick, can you introduce yourself?

My name's Win, I use its pronouns.

I work for a cute little sex shop we all know and love called As You Like It, but I'm here as myself, not as somebody for the show.

Yeah, I'm just a queer freak that likes talking about being a queer freak and hanging out with other queer freaks and facilitating joy.

Don't we all?

So we actually met you, you were teaching a class on shame.

And I mean, it was a really cool talk.

You know, a lot of different folks from the community came in and spoke to their experiences on shame and how that affects the way we express ourselves as adults.

And I think Clay and I both were, we went there hoping to get a bit more in depth and talk about how to flip the script in kink.

With your play.

Yeah.

Yeah, that one, that one was really interesting.

I really wanted that, I kind of wanted that event specifically to like actually like not be a class.

Like I really wanted it to be, because it came out of doing, I do like a kink 101 classes, right, and it came out of a class that ended up being really, really small.

We had like a bunch of people flake at the last minute, which like happens, but it ended up being really small.

It was just me and two people, and they had just moved here from Texas, and it very quickly became sort of a deep dive into like, into shame and like, you know, from their specific experiences, like Catholic shame, right, coming from the religious experiences, but also just like spiraling into like shame.

And like, there was at one point this person, and they asked me like, you know, how do I know how, basically they were like, how do I know if I was like, treat, if I was like, like basically, if I was like assaulted during kink, because afterwards I like felt really, really ashamed about it, you know?

And they were like, I had a great time.

The person was lovely.

They were, and I had a wonderful time while I was doing it.

And then afterwards I felt horrible about it.

And I was like, well, I mean, I can't tell you I was there.

I don't know the nuance, but I do know that two things, one, that sounds like drop, which people don't talk about enough, which is really alarming.

And two, like that sounds like you were coming up against your own societal ideas of shame and your own moral binary, and like that that didn't actually have to do with what happened.

It had to do with how you felt like you should feel.

You know, and I think people get really caught up in this idea of how they think they should feel about stuff, you know, especially around sex.

Yeah.

And I think that like, and of course, this is like, I make a lot of sweeping statements because it's just how I talk, but like there's a little asterisk after everything I say of like with nuance.

You know, every situation is different.

But like, I think that there is a bit of a push lately for people to kind of like either slot things into like perfect or problematic.

Yeah.

And that's really hard with kink, right?

Like you're gonna hit messy stuff.

You're gonna touch really like raw wires, you know?

And like you're gonna bring up stuff that you weren't expecting.

And that's like part of what's so beautiful about it, but you have to have grace when you do that.

And in order to have that grace, you really have to work on like divesting from this moral binary that we are taught of like things are either good or they're bad.

And if you're a good person, then good things happen to you.

And if you're a bad person, then bad things happen to you.

Right?

And like, some people get taught it really, really directly, but a lot of people just get it sort of like implicitly all around us.

Like we live in a Puritan culture.

We are living in like the like ramifications of a Puritan like genocidal colonial state.

And people don't really like want to dive into that, you know?

And so I was like, all right, let's have an opportunity to get a bunch of people into a room and like talk to each other about it.

Because like I think that something that comes out of this is we have a lot of people that are looking because of the way that like, you know, a lot of like Puritan, like Christo Puritan systems are set up, right?

You get absolution from that shame by somebody in power.

And so I really wanted to set up something where it was like, I am not absolving people of shame.

I am not in charge of this.

I am letting you all talk to each other and discover that you were ashamed about the same things that you have no reason to be ashamed of.

You know, and like how much healing could be found there.

Which also meant it went some really wild places.

You let people talk about their trauma.

They will talk about their trauma.

It was great.

And it was really, really wild to like watch how quickly and with very little prompting, you know, like I'm a super radical person.

I'm from a super radical family.

Like, you know, like I was raised pretty traditional, very anti-colonial, very like, you know, like America is bad, the church is bad, you know, like, don't believe it.

And so it was wild to watch a bunch of people from like, you know, people that went to a class that as you like it, but also like just people really quickly follow these routes back.

It was wild.

It was a wild class.

I'm glad you were there to witness it.

But yeah, I think everybody in their heart knows who the culprits are, what mechanisms in the systems make life so horrible for all of us and inflict all this trauma on us.

But there are plenty of people who aren't, they've been taught that they're not allowed to question some of those things.

So some of them come up with some really wacky ways to not even wrap their heads around shit.

Sort of circumvent?

Yeah.

It's really bizarre.

I mean, that's why some of the conspiracy theories out there are so fucking bizarre, because they cannot question capitalism.

It's really interesting when you look at a culture that's so based on the systems of control that we have are like, exploration is bad, asking questions is bad, this really, really intensive focus on discouraging independent thought, and discouraging critical thought, and what that looks like as a culture, and the ramifications that happen, and what we're really seeing right now.

And I think that there are, I think that people choose one of four ways to live, and I think it's fear slash ignorance, despair slash emptiness, anger and joy.

And joy is by far the hardest, and the most vulnerable, and the most honest, but it's really hard, and a lot of people fall into other three, and I think that a lot of dominant culture in America very much falls into fear, ignorance.

And so when you pick at that, people get really, really, really reactive.

And I think that it also, again, ties into that moral binary thing, right?

Because it's like, if you simultaneously, and accountability, right?

If you acknowledge that people can do bad things while still being people, right?

People are just people.

And also that you can be a good person and do bad things, and you still have to be accountable for things, creates this whole network of uncertainty of, but am I a good person?

Am I a bad person?

Or bad things gonna happen to me?

Or good things gonna happen to me?

Do I deserve good things, right?

All of this weird cycle that turns into people just doubling down, which is so harmful.

That logic structure starts to fall apart.

So fast.

When you realize that you can do bad things and still be a good person.

Right.

And that doesn't really exist.

You're just a person, and what you do is make better choices.

You are not damned, and you are not blessed.

You are just a person, and you can at any point, any moment, decide to be a better person.

Right?

It's not that complicated.

Yeah.

Yeah, so shame in understanding your shame.

Yeah, yeah, and I think that...

I think that it affects every part of people's lives, but I think that, like, sex is...

And really, when we say sex, what we mean is, like, like, vulnerability and, like, intimacy, right?

Like, that can look a million ways.

And for a lot of people, that looks like sex.

And I think that, like, the place, the way that you access that the most, like, fulfillingly and truly is by being honest, right?

And to be honest, you have to have faced all of this shit first, right?

And, like, the best sex comes from vulnerability.

I think that's one of the, like, things that I really love about kink, is that, like, there's such an intense level of vulnerability and also, like, to have gotten to the point where you are able to know that you want these things that, you know, most people are gonna say are really bad or really hurtful or harmful or whatever, and, like, know that you want them and be in a place where you can articulate that and find other people.

Like, that says to me that you are somebody that, like, has done enough of this work that I can, like, work with you.

Yeah.

When I first took a look at kink before I realized how kinky I was, my introduction to kink was producing a podcast with Janet Hardy.

And a lot of the stuff that she was talking about, I couldn't wrap my head around.

I would go online, check out FetLife, and some of the things that were really off-putting to me was the age play and the shame and degradation.

Because it was all very porn-based, especially back then.

I never would have thought that shame and degradation would be something that I would be exploring and enjoy.

But it is very powerful to hold space for someone's experience powering through some kind of shame or discomfort, embarrassment, and watch them come out the other side just a little bit stronger for it.

In those early days, I would never have imagined that that was what could come of that kind of play.

Whenever we do harm in loving ways, there is such an opportunity to have a lot of growth and a lot of affirmation and a lot of trust.

And I think that trust gets thrown around a lot, and it's this idea that you trust somebody or you don't, but the levels of trust that you can achieve with somebody, especially through things like kink, are really profound.

And there's depths of it and security to it that is really profound and really hard to access other ways.

And I think that, for instance, that thing of, I am going to take the fluttering bird of your heart and I'm going to break a wing, and then I'm going to heal it and set it, and it's going to grow back stronger, and you're going to trust me to do it this whole time.

And I'm going to do this so you can be free in whatever you want to be, and I'm going to do it the way you want me to do it, and you're going to trust me to do that, and I'm going to fulfill your trust, and have that completed cycle is really, really deeply fulfilling.

And there's such a high payout for that.

And it's really hard to explain to people, I think because most people don't exist in a place of honesty and vulnerability that would make that possible.

It just feels so inaccessible and befuddling to them in such a way that I think is really telling.

That you can trust somebody to hold you like that.

And that they're going to do it.

It's really wild.

I just feel bad for people that are like, I could never do that.

I could never find somebody.

I could never trust somebody.

And I'm like, that's really sad.

I'm really sorry that you've never found that in your life.

And you know, that comes from a very, very trauma-heavy background.

Trust is not something that comes easy to me.

And being able to have that with people is more profound.

All the more profound because of it.

I feel like it's similar to every time that I have a break in trust with a partner.

There's a moment of part of me wants to blow this up and leave and fulfill that negative future fantasy or fulfill that trauma expectation, fulfill that trauma playbook.

And every time that I have an opportunity to be like, actually, let's do something different this time, it's so wildly healing in a way that I don't think I'd be able to access if that break had never happened.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And I feel like shame in a positive place can be sort of like a microcosm of that.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think when I first started to come into understanding that shame and degradation was a thing in King, which is, you know, like when you're watching porn for the first time at a very young age, you are getting all of this information that you have no fucking clue what to do with.

Yeah.

Or like how to navigate, and you grow with that for a while.

And so I knew that there was this shame and degradation in there that like seemed really scary to me and like not desirable, but at the same time, I couldn't stop consuming media about it.

Funky there, huh?

I'm going to drink more.

I'm going to keep drinking it and I'll find out.

I don't think I like that.

It's like got a weird aftertaste.

I don't know if I like that.

No, literally, I would just be like, oh, next.

Oh, wow.

Back it up a little bit.

It's really funny to me like, and this isn't entirely a personal thing.

It's not like a judgment on other people, but I don't understand the appeal of watching really heavy dynamic kink porn, because I'm like, the good shit there is in knowing the nitty gritties of that dynamic and the payoffs, and I'm like, I'm not involved in this.

I'm not really getting anything out of this, as opposed to knowing somebody really well or having that gift of submission or getting to give that to somebody else.

That's the good show.

I'm often thinking of myself in these situations when I'm watching this porn, I'm like, oh my god, this would be so hot if somebody I knew did this to me.

Right, exactly, if I had the level of trust or the level of dynamic for this.

Yeah, 100%.

Or taking notes, inspiration.

Yeah, exactly.

Like with that hot needle.

You're welcome.

I like bringing shame and degradation into my kink.

I think it is incredibly healing.

And once I saw the way people were doing, like once I saw people starting to talk about how they brought their shame into their kink and how it was healing for them, I was like, oh, I get it now.

Okay, that makes sense.

And then I started to be able to do that.

And yeah, it's really, really changed my sex life.

I've never enjoyed sex as much as I do now.

I love to hear it.

It's funny.

It's not a specific thing that I have explored a ton intentionally in the kink that I've done, just because the people that I've played with, it hasn't really been a huge thing.

But definitely embarrassment is a huge thing.

And I have a partner that is really into age play stuff.

And there's definitely the embarrassment element there that she really, really likes.

And it's that thing of like, yeah, like, the being mean in a safe way is such a profound thing.

And especially about like, things that like, you know, like, in kink that are like, so like, societally shamed, right?

Having that like, safer affirmation is so powerful, you know, because it's like, especially things that you like, actually are embarrassed about being like, oh, we're going to bring those out in the open and be honest about them.

And that is going to be so freeing, you know, and like, I'm going to confirm all of your worst fears in the best way, you know?

Yeah, having a safe space to be that vulnerable and it be okay to feel ashamed, and to even like, be celebrated for feeling shameful and displaying that shame for other people, getting a pat on the head afterwards for it.

So good.

So good.

And it's yeah, it's like that, like, every time that you are vulnerable, and there is a positive outcome, there is really good payoff for it.

Which I just think is really interesting.

I think it like, I really love like a lot of my background is in evolutionary biology.

And so I really love thinking about the ways that like, these things are tied into like the way that human brains work.

Yeah, you know, and like the way that like, empathy works in the way that like, we like interact as people.

I just think it's really fucking interesting.

Evolutionary biology and kink is an interesting topic.

I like seeing the way that the book is like, specifically my focus is in like, covalent evolution.

So it was like the way that things fit.

I really like the way that things fit together.

Yeah, okay, you know.

And so like, oh, this affects that affects this affects that like, I was really into like South American evolution, because like South American evolution is like, wildly different than pretty much anywhere else, because it was an isolated landmass that had birds as an apex predator for much longer than anywhere else.

Like there was like a couple million years where South America had terror.

But yeah, this is what you want to listen to on a King Podcast, where South America had like terror birds, right?

Instead of the like large mammal predators, right?

Like dire wolves and big cats that were propping up other places.

And so they're like, their evolutionary system is really, really different and is still really different and weird compared to a lot of other places.

And then it changed really dramatically really quickly when it reconnected with Central and North America and big tooth cats got reintroduced, right?

Which is why you see cougars, the cougars in Patagonia and the cougars in the cascades are the same cougar, right?

They're descended from the same bloodline.

But South American evolution is so wild, which is how you get a lot of these like, schmedium predators, right?

There actually aren't large aprex, like mammal predators in South America in the same way that there are other places.

And like, a lot of these really interesting, like mid-sized, and at the same time, there aren't like large grass eaters in quite the same way.

Oh, yeah.

Like there's like alpacas and I'm trying to remember what the non-domesticated ones are called.

Lung?

No.

It's like what they were both descended from, but they're basically like feral llamas.

They're not feral, like they're wild, they're the wild version.

I don't remember what they're called though.

Well, to give a specific example of one of the ways that I have like taken my shame and brought that into play is with butt stuff.

I wanted butt stuff, but was so like, don't look at my butt, don't touch it.

There's poop that comes out of that.

You sure about that?

Like, so that just, I had a lot of shame around that.

But I wanted to be able to trust somebody for to start that kind of thing.

And one of the things that me and my dynamic partner did was he gave me an enema and like showed me how to do it.

And then it became part of like the play that like I'm ashamed that I'm embarrassed that I'm getting this enema and I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm pooping out shit water in front of you.

That's fucking scary.

I've never done that.

I've never pooped in front of somebody, let alone had somebody give me an enema.

But like after that, I really felt, I mean, I still felt kind of clammy about it, but it has opened me up a lot more and taken away a lot of that shame about my butthole, which, you know, like if you want to have fulfilling anal play, like you got to be stressed about it.

You can't be stressed about it.

That doesn't make it fun.

So yeah, that shit is really helpful.

You just take your shame and eroticize it to your advantage.

I think also like, yeah, I think it's also that that thing of like, just take the fucking plunge.

Yeah, take the plunge, right?

Like, choose, choose joy, like do the scary things because they're going to make you happy.

Yeah, you know, and like that moment of like, I think that we are all really, really deeply afraid of being seen as, you know, the like dirty, you know, mule-ing little creatures that we are, right, like, I think that, you know, and I think it all again, like, I think it all ties back together to that, like, you know, societal Puritan thing of that, like, idea that so many people are imbued with in our culture of like, you are inherently bad, and you are working up from this place of inherent badness, right, you are trying to, are trying to, like, you know, ascend, and I think that's like such a fucked up mind space for people.

Oh, yeah, being from a religious background, I totally that is exactly the original sin.

Yeah, and it's fucking weird.

Like I really I really think about like, what, you know, like some of the most damaging things you can do to somebody is be like, you are inherently bad, exploration is bad, like, joy is bad.

Right.

Like wanting to understand the original sin is wanting to understand it's asking questions.

Right.

Like that's that thing of like, no critical thought, no asking questions.

And like, that's how you create a really intense system of control.

Right.

And like that really intense hierarchy of control.

Right.

The only way that you can be not bad and have your questions answered is if they're from this one person who is the like pinnacle of absolution.

Right.

And that's such a weird, toxic situation.

And so like, even if we don't believe in that, it still gets instilled in us.

Right.

And so like, when we have this opportunity through kink of like, here is this person that I think is good.

Right.

Like, you're sleeping with somebody because, hopefully, because you like them, and you think they're cool, and you want them to like you.

Right.

And so I think that like, that's really like, getting that absolution, getting that like, you are going to look at this part of me that I have been told is bad.

And if you love it, then I can love it.

Yeah.

Right.

Which I think is very human, right?

Like I think that we are a super social species.

We look to each other for like, you know, like a litmus test, right?

We look to each other of like, is this good?

Is this bad?

Am I doing the right thing?

Like I think that's very intrinsically human.

And I think that's very intrinsic in like a social species, right?

To like check in with the people around us and like gauge how other people are reacting to things, right?

Which is a really interesting thing that I get to for my job with just like, you know, of like the retail of sex work of like, you know, where is your comfort level?

How can I, where can I, you know, not push, but like, where can I press?

Where can I, you know, guide and nudge and where are you just gonna shut down?

Yeah.

You know?

I bet that's something like a daily thing that you run into with the customers that you have, the different amounts of shame or what kind of shame a customer has.

And, and how willing they are to face that, you know, like, I had a customer recently who was, you know, older cis white couple and definitely like had not, had not done a lot of exploring and we're kind of in the shop for the very first time.

And it was like, she was like, oh, you know, I, I had to get a little drunk before I came here.

And then she like, you know, was like, oh, like, I was basically like ask questions.

She was like, really?

I can ask questions.

And I was like, yeah, really?

You can ask questions.

You should.

Like, everybody who works here is like a trained sexual health resource.

Like we're literally here to ask questions.

Like we work here because we're fucking nerds, you know?

I don't work that job because I get paid.

I work that job because I love it.

And as soon as that like door was open, like she was off, you know, and just like asking all of these things.

And the whole time she kept like, kind of excusing herself where she was like, I'm so sorry.

This is so terrible.

I must be being so awful.

I must be right.

And I was like, you're fine.

Like you're good.

I'm glad you're like finding new stuff.

Yeah.

You know, and like exploring this stuff and like, and again, like looking to me for, you know, to check and looking to her partner to check and like that constant gauging.

And it's really interesting, you know, and then I have sort of a flip side of people that are like so closed off and so like, don't talk to me.

Don't look at me.

I'm like, like scared.

Yeah, you know, and those ones are harder, like I have a harder time with those people.

Sometimes the few times I've gone into as you like it, only like one of them I had like, I knew what I was looking for.

And sometimes when I don't know what I'm looking for, I don't immediately want help.

And I don't want people to ask me any questions, because I will just give you answers without thinking actually thinking about what I want.

Um, and so sometimes I can find that kind of daunting.

So I can be both kind of like, please don't talk to I'll come find you.

I will ask a question.

Please trust that I will ask you.

And that's cool.

I love people like that.

It's really the people that are like, it's like, that act like this staff there are going to like, remember them know they're it's really the people that have the vibes of like, you're trying to talk like, like, you're being a creeper, which is so strange to me, I'm like, you came in to my sex shop where I work.

And you're gonna act like me asking you if you need help is me like coming on to you.

Like, no, can you chill for like two minutes?

Yeah, like, oh, yeah.

But again, it's always it's always an adventure, you know, and always such a like exercise of trust.

And it's really wild that people can like come in there and they're just like, you know, all open and all out.

And I'm like, cool, this is great.

And also, this is so much confidence.

Wow.

And like, and I got to say, like, we can't help but admire the people who are loud and confident about the sex that they have or want to have.

And I think there's a piece in all of us that we wish we could be more loud about the sex that we have.

And to be that person is a fucking pleasure, might I say.

Um, uh, I, you know, I am part of the, like, crew of Little Fag Dykes, and, you know, we all flag.

And I was at a, I do a lot of activism, I was at a, um, a, like, caucus event for a pretty, like, big organization, and there was this person there.

And at one point, I was, like, there with a sweetie, and, you know, and they, like, turned to us, and this, and she, like, you know, another, like, radical punk trans kid.

And she was, like, are you flagging at the meeting?

And we're like, yeah, homie, you okay?

Like, you gonna, like, deal with yourself?

Oh, but she was just, like, absolutely aghast.

What were you flagging?

Red.

Red is fisting, yes, or is it?

Fisting blood depends on, like, the level of darkness, and also, like, I'm down for both.

Like, whatever you want to interpret that as, have at it.

Um, you know, I always joke to people, I was like, Oh, how did you meet your girlfriend?

And I'm like, Oh, yeah, my wife needle cruised her at Rad Pride.

She was wearing a purple hankie.

Purple needles.

Sharps.

Yeah.

It's just, it's really funny.

Like, it's really, it's, it's funny, it's funny the places that you see it.

And it's really wild watching the, like, Puritan creep into, like, young people and into queer spaces.

Yeah.

And I'm like, this is, this is so sad.

You are doing the work for them.

That's so sad.

Sharps.

Do we want to talk a little bit more?

Yeah.

I'm fascinated by it.

Some of it freaks me out a little bit, but that just makes me more excited.

It's freaky.

It's every time there's like a little, the little, the bit of squick is part of the best part.

Yeah.

I know I'm feeling, I feel myself so, I get so squicky about the needles and the sharps and I'm like...

It's freaky and it's really good.

But again, why do I keep looking at it?

Why do I keep doing it?

For sure.

You know?

I know enough to know that I need to learn a lot about it before I really start fucking with it.

You know enough that you don't know.

You know enough to know that you don't know enough.

Yeah, but I'm very, very excited to start learning and to start playing.

I mean, I know that there are some things that, well, plenty of it is very dangerous.

I mean, a lot of what we do is dangerous.

It's really wild to me.

Sorry not to cut you off, but it's really wild to me, like, the scale of danger that people have with kink and like the way that I'm like, I have people come in and they're like, Oh, I'm not, you know, I'm not really kinky.

I'm like, very, I'm like, pretty vanilla.

I just, you know, I just do some like breath play stuff.

I'm like, what the, that's fucking dangerous.

That is one of the most dangerous fucking things that you can do.

I'm pretty vanilla.

I just like to choke out my girlfriend.

No, really.

And I'm like, whoa, whoa.

That thing of like, you know, I'm like, when you get into like heavier blood work, right?

Like needle, like needles are, are pretty surface level for the most part.

Like really, as long as you're like using good needles, you've all gotten blood tested.

You're not doing it.

You know, there's like places that you want to do it.

It's sort of a similar map to like impact, right?

So places that are like thick and fleshy and not right over veins, you know, like it's, I'm not going to be like, you know, I'm not going to come on to be like, just go stab a needle in somebody like you want to learn.

You know, really, you want to find somebody that you can learn from, which is, you know, hard to find.

But like, this is how we've passed this knowledge back and forth is like through each other.

And like, you know, scalpel stuff like that, more intense lacerations, stitching, suturing, all that sort of stuff, stapling, like that gets a lot more serious.

But like, especially like surface piercing play is a lot less intense than people think it is.

Yeah.

Um, you know, and people are always like, huh, huh, huh, and I'm like, study a nerve path, like study a nerve path chart, study veins, use really small needles, be really intense about your sterilization, right?

Like wear gloves, get good antiseptic, like I encourage people to get chlorhexidine because it keeps working for a while, even after you apply it as opposed to alcohol, which is like sterilizing and when it evaporates, you know, go really slow, start with a really small gauge and like, fuck around a little bit, you know, fuck around and find out.

Yeah, for real.

I mentioned as an educator, there's kind of a dilemma when you get into riskier topics, you kind of like, should I put this out there because I know that people are going to fuck around with it?

And maybe having some base knowledge of some of this is better than going in with nothing.

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's one of those tricky things of like, I will never do a blood play class at the shop.

I will never do a like blood 101.

You know, I have made and it's available at the shop and like on our Instagram, like a you know, blood safety 101.

You know, that's basically like, here are the starters that you have to know.

You know, and like, I do do like one on one classes and stuff like that.

And like, you know, I have people that I mentor, you know, I have my little like kink family and most of those are people that like, we teach each other and experiment together.

And like, a lot of that has been, you know, people that I know coming to me and being like, Hi, I'm really interested in this.

Can we like do this together?

You know, it's definitely one of those things that like, really profound level of trust, really profound level of like, vulnerability, you know, and also like, you are dealing with like injury endorphins, which are a whole different level, right?

So like, you really have to like, have good aftercare protocols, you really have to have good wound care protocols, right?

Like, this is my thing, like, for me, whenever I like, dom anybody, I'm like, your responsibility, the way that you show respect to me is that you take good fucking care of this.

And like, have, you know, I will like check in with people and be like, give me progress picks, how is this healing, like, show me.

And if like, they're not taking care of it, I'm like, cool, then we're not playing again.

Yeah.

You know?

Like knife play, blood play, needle play, this is not something that you like do on a one night stand.

No.

You know, this is not something that you do, like, definitely don't ever do intoxicated.

You don't ever, like there are, like, I think that people should like play how they want to play in a lot of different dynamics, right?

And if like you have an established play partner, you've been doing it for a long time, like your business is your business, right?

If you're not doing harm, that's one thing.

But like the likelihood of harming yourself or others in this is so high that like even in established, like, I don't, I side-eye people that mix like heavy intoxication and any sort of like, you know, sharps play, you know, stuff like that.

Heavy side-eye.

Heavy side-eye.

And, you know, you can't stop people, if I could stop people from being dumb, I would A, never rest, and B, the world would be better.

I don't have that power, I don't want that power, but, I don't know, I don't have fish, I don't want responsibility.

But I can, you know, try to put as little evil into the world as I can.

You know, always try and like act in ways that do the least amount of harm and bring the most amount of joy.

But you know, a lot of responsibility when it comes to being an educator.

Which is why I'm always like, asterisk, with nuance, not a doctor, unprofessional opinion.

This is my opinion as a person, not opinion with the shop.

Like I have to put all of these, you know, disclaimers of things and like, you know, I'm not saying, you know, run to transponder and get sure, you know, injection supplies and stab needles into your friends, you know, but I'm also not saying that.

Yeah, as someone with experience doing this exact thing, and also as a sex educator, you can give your own ideas from your experience, your own advice, and encourage people to try things.

And I'm always like, you know, if you're really, really nervous about it, like, put it in an orange first before you put it in a person, you know, like practice, practice sliding a needle under an apple skin, you know, practice sliding a needle under a banana, like whatever, like practice that feeling, right?

And like what it feels like, like, it's really hard to explain to people when you're using when you're doing needlework, like the push, the pop, you know, like getting it through skin and like the way that you like getting that muscle memory, getting that feeling of like, oh, I know that I'm sliding this, you know, between layers of dermis or between the dermis and the fat and like what that feels like, right?

Like what different gauges of needle are going to feel like to push through, like the bigger gauge you get through, the more work it's going to take to punch through, like the more you're going to have to shove that shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So just like learning how bodies work is the biggest thing, learning how like microbial infections work, you know, good wound care.

I have a lot of training like in wound care and also in like straight medic care, you know, and like, like one of the people that I play with is like a trained EMT, you know, and like I said, the person that I get a lot of my inspiration from is a surgeon, people who professionally deal with sharps in this way.

Exactly.

You know, and also like experiment on yourself first, you know, like this is one of those things.

Like, I don't think that I think that like the thing of like, you know, if you're going to do something to somebody, you should have done it to yourself first.

I think that's kind of a slippery slope.

But I think for things like sharps, it's good to know, you know, it's good to know what it feels like, you know, in like, or have somebody else do it to you, you know, like, and also I cannot ever stress to people enough.

I'm like, you are playing with pain, and that means you're playing with endorphins, yeah.

You know, and that endorphin rush is nuts.

You know, like, I have never had an endorphin rush in my life like I have getting slapped in the face with vampire gloves.

Like woof.

What were the what was the marks like after that?

Oh, they're really cute.

I'm sure I have pictures.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

You have to find those for us.

So I have some scarring.

This is what it looks like from the like, pull.

Oh, yeah.

Hooey.

And also, like, again, like stuff like vampire gloves, vampire paddles, like, that's really surface you're not doing deep tissue damage, you know, even when you're doing scrapes, even that sort of stuff.

Like, that's why we sell stuff like that at the shop, right?

That's why I'll just like sell that to people.

Yeah, you know, and that's a great place to start an experiment.

Yeah, you know, like, starting with very surface level stuff.

Really like anything that gets through that fat layer, right?

Anything that like, requires even a bandaid, you know, is a more serious thing, you know, so like start with those much more surface level things go slowly.

And like, I really I run into this a lot.

And it's something that like, both frustrates me and also I think does harm this like, sort of competitive ranking thing that people get into with kink, where it's like beginner kink versus advanced kink.

And it's like, well, this is a starter and then you can work your way up to this.

I'm like, no, no.

They're just different levels of intensity.

And some people like to stay at this level forever, and some people start at this level, and that's okay.

Like, there's no pressure.

You know what I mean?

Like, say you discover that you absolutely love 25 gauge needles.

Stay at 25 gauge needles, don't feel like you have to do 18s if you don't like them.

Like, don't always push to be regressive, right?

And like, I say this as somebody who plays really fucking hard, you don't have to play really fucking hard, and there isn't like glory in playing really hard.

It's just what makes people the happiest, you know?

And like, I happen to play with people that play really, really, really fucking hard.

And those people are absolute gifts and I cherish them.

And also, if somebody else doesn't want to play that hard, that doesn't make them less favorable.

Yeah.

I think in every aspect, I think some people will be like, well, there are different levels of kink, the beginner levels of kink, which is like, oh, spanking and a little bit of breast play or whatever and restraints.

And I think those are just different aspects of kink that you can mix and match.

Yeah, mix and match and take it different intensities.

There are different intensities of bondage, of impact, of sharps, of whatever.

You might not go hard on all these other things, but then you find something that just really fucking hits hard and you're like, oh, I got to have more of that.

And again, this is one of the most funny things I have to explain to people where I'm like, a bare hand is a pretty high level implement.

Yeah.

That's a pretty high intensity implement.

Most floggers are going to be much softer than an open palm.

Yep.

And it's really interesting working with people's expectations and all of the weird bad information they've gotten.

And their ideas is always an adventure.

It's a never ending unlearning process.

It is.

It is.

There is growth.

Growth is the most profound and fun thing in the world to me.

I want to live a life where I'm always growing and changing.

And with other people who are growing and changing.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Exploration is such a basis of being human.

Exploring how life can be better, how things can be more fun, how they can taste better, how they can look better, how they can feel better.

I don't get people whose goal is not max net joy.

I don't get it.

The people who are playing not to lose and the people who are playing to win.

Neither.

I'm playing to have fun.

Anyway.

I guess in my head, I'm playing to win.

I want to have fun.

I want to do the things that I want to do.

I want to win the joy.

I'm not playing to just like, I'm just going to choose to do nothing because I don't know if it'll be fulfilled or not.

Right.

And I don't know, I think that the most joyous, fulfilling fucking meal is like snap peas out of the garden with friends that I like.

Yeah, fuck yeah.

You know what I mean?

It's not like, and it's that because it's like what makes me the happiest and what does the least amount of harm.

You know?

I'm like, yeah.

People are always like, because I did culinary school too, and they were like, people are always like, oh, what's your favorite, and I'm like, whatever's seasonal and local.

Or they're like, oh, what do you think, what's the best, you know, da-da.

And I'm like, seasonal, local.

Look at what people have been eating in your ecosystem for hundreds of thousands of years.

They might have an idea of what you might want.

Eat the food that makes you feel good.

Yeah.

And it's probably gonna end up being the freshest, the localest, and the most seasonal.

And I feel like sex is the same way, right?

You're gonna find the sex that makes you the happiest and then explore why it makes you happy.

And it's probably gonna be the sex that is vulnerable and honest and fulfilling.

Are there any classes that you're the most proud of?

Oh, the most proud of.

You know, it's funny.

I teach in a very non-traditional way, and I very much so prefer my classes to be more like a discussion and to be really about what people want them to be about.

Do you know what I mean?

And I did a class a while ago that was a really big class that went really well.

It was like the part two, because I do a three-part kink 101, basically, it was like a 102, and it was called How to Ask for What You Want.

It was really interesting having a lot of people come in, and basically they all knew what they wanted, and they didn't know how to be okay with that.

And what it really boiled down to was like, and it went a lot of different places.

We had a lot of socialization doesn't actually exist, and you probably don't, if you are doing more than you want to be doing, and your boyfriend isn't doing enough, then maybe you should do less and ask him to do more.

And a really wild, a lot of people realizing that they had the power to ask for what they wanted, and that was actually a good thing.

And so I think that that's definitely one of my favorite classes that I've taught.

And the thing of the look on people's faces where I was like, look, you go in, you say, this is how I want you to make me feel.

These are some ways I think we could do it.

And giving people that framework, and watching that settle in, and watching the gears start turning.

I love the moment when the gears start turning.

I love it.

I can see it in their faces.

When somebody checks out of my class and starts thinking about the fun sex they want to have, that's great for me.

I'm like, awesome.

And also that kink 101 class with those that ended up being just me and two other people, that was a really profound class.

And we really got fucking into it.

And there was crying, and that was really special.

And I definitely walked out of that being like, wow, I think I did a good thing.

I think that I made it more possible for these people to access joy.

It's a really fulfilling, rewarding feeling to help other people access their joy.

It's really fucking good.

I don't think that being an educator is an elevated status.

I don't really think of myself as an educator.

I think of myself as a person.

I like other people to experience more joy.

Honestly, I like that sex and shame conversation.

I didn't teach it.

I was just a facilitator.

But I love the places that it went.

I love that it got into it super fast.

I've had some really sweet private blood classes that have been really sweet and profound.

And also, I love freaks.

I love other freaks.

I love watching other freaks come into their freakiness.

Watching somebody's face when they get a needle for the first time is like, I live for that.

Or that moment when you...

The moment when somebody puts on a pair of vampire gloves for the first time, and you watch it settle into them, and you're like, what are you going to do with those?

And you can just see it, that discovery, that is so good to me.

I feel like it goes into the same thing, again, with like, cookie, where it's like when you try things together for the first time, and you're like, oh, that tastes good.

You know?

And like that moment is my favorite fucking moment.

Yeah.

So like watching people, you know, putting something in somebody's hand and having them be like, oh, this is good.

Oh, I have ideas.

You know?

Like that is so good.

I live for that shit.

I think that also like fuels the like, oh, this is hot.

Yeah.

Like watching you get all hot and bothered about this.

It has nothing to do with me.

Yeah.

I like, I have a sweetheart and it was like, we were like, you know, we were like, this is, we're not gonna, this is, we're gonna, like we had like chemistry when we first met.

And then like, you know, and then it was like, I watched her put gloves on, like vampire gloves on for the first time.

And I was like, hmm, hmm, hello?

Um, I think you should come here and put those on me right now.

Yeah.

Cause like I need to experience this.

And I'm like such a like vibes person, such an energy person, you know, like I love, I love that.

It's joy, right?

I love that joy.

It's so good.

I love the wicked joy.

And I love the like, I love the like glory of deviancy in a lot of it, you know, and like, I love like, I love good clean blood lust.

You know, it's such a beautiful thing.

Good clean blood lust.

Yes, yes.

Lusting for blood.

Oh, it's so good.

It's so good.

There's like, there's a container of violence that you allow yourself with kink, that like, I feel like a lot of people have a lot of bloodthirsty...

Yeah, and they're not allowed to explore it.

Like, this is something that like, I really like, you know, like, my whole life, like, you might have noticed, I'm 6'1, like, I'm a fucking strong kid, and like, I was pretty feral as a kid.

I grew up in the woods, like, I'm very, very barely person shaped.

I had my teeth filed as a kid because I was a biter.

And like, and I think, and again, it ties into that shame stuff kind of from the other side, right?

Like, I talk a lot about the shame of being a sadist, right?

Like, don't be a biter, don't be feral.

Right, and like this thing of like, you, you know, being seen as a monster, right?

And like, all of these, you know, control habits and like, all of this stuff that I realized looking back as a kid was just that I was a fucking freak, right?

Yeah.

And that there were other people that were into this.

And like, you know, other, as a kid, you like find other kids and have weird like kid dynamics.

You know?

But like, it's so intensely, like, villainized and so intensely demonized.

And it's like, you are a bad person because you have these urges, even though they're perfectly fucking normal.

And there are tons of people that have opposite and complimentary urges.

You know?

And like, oh, actually, like, we are predators.

And it's really fun to get to like, lean into that in a good way, you know?

And I think it's that same thing of like, I'm going to look at these, like, you know, the sharp parts of you.

I'm going to look at your scary fucking teeth.

And I'm going to like, not run away screaming.

Yeah.

I'm going to play with them.

Exactly, right?

I'm going to bear my neck.

And like, that's such a good, such a good affirmation.

Yeah.

You know, of like, oh, actually, I want your cruelty.

I want your viciousness.

And I understand that like, it's the same coin.

It's the same two faces of the same coin.

Yeah.

Right, like my like really intense, like kindness and nurturing this and like softness are the same faces of like my like cruelty and viciousness and glee, that glia.

Like, I just there's something about like being able to access the like glee of sadism.

That's so good to me.

Absolutely.

You know, like when I hit people and they giggle, nothing makes me happier than that.

Like, if I turn on the audio in that video, that person is like getting hit and then giggling.

It's like, I love them.

Yeah.

And it's so good.

It just makes me want to bite harder.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, I feel I'm a very subby bottom.

But I know I'm I know I have some sadistic tendencies towards me in there.

Like with my growing up with my sisters, I was always the freakiest youngest one.

And like, you know, you have a feral young child.

I'm also the baby.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I got Catholic on the one side with the 18 grandchildren and then the eight grandchildren on the other side.

It's just and I'm the baby on each.

So I'm kind of a handful.

But yeah, there's like, you know, once I realized, oh, like I could harness that at some point and finally let that switch side of me out and see what tickles my fancy.

I think that people have so much duality and it's so important for people to be allowed to be dualistic, you know, and like be whole people as opposed to like be, you know, this like weird idealized version of like, you know, perfect, pure, you know, you'll never have these urges.

Like, you know, that blew my mind as a kid and as a teenager, fighting myself, like fighting with your own self, like I shouldn't be thinking these thoughts.

Yeah, I'm a bad person.

Yeah, I think so much about like, how much of this narrative I have of myself of like, oh, I'm a bad person that just, you know, decides to act like a good person.

And I'm like, I don't know if that's true.

Actually, I think a bad person would not act like a good.

I don't think that's actually how that works.

Or I think I'm just bad at it.

Bad people don't care.

Exactly, right?

You know, and like, you know, I look back and I'm like, maybe all of these like weird dynamics that I had with other people were just like, not understanding and like looking back as an adult and like, oh, you were just really stubby and wanted to get told what to do.

And also we were in middle school, so it came out as like a weird cult thing.

And like, I don't know, like we find each other, right?

Like, I don't know, like every boy I was friends with in high school was a girl now, like we find each other.

I felt a lot of shame for being a horny kid.

There were too many times that I was just like, oops, accidentally horny in front of like my family, like my parents and my sisters, and my sisters would be like, shut the fuck up.

Don't be like that right now.

Or my mom would be like, perhaps not right now.

And then my dad wouldn't say anything, because it was really weird for him.

And it's so weird to me, humans are like a really intensely sexual species.

And like this idea that we are like not horny until we're 18 is so weird to me.

I'm like, this is so strange.

And that we should all deny it as well.

Right, and this is like, this is one of the things that I think is like maybe the most like controversial in like classes and stuff is I'm like, yeah, if you're a horny adult or like a kinky adult, you were probably a kinky kid.

And people are like shocked and like think that I'm like weird about it.

And I'm like, that like, that's just a fact.

Like it's not a like, you know, like you had some weird wants as a kid, right?

And like that doesn't mean that you like should have been at a kink club as a 12 year old.

No, it just means like it would have been nice if it had been like, hi, you have like these urges, like you need to learn how to be a person before you can fulfill them, but they're not bad.

Yeah.

Like I think that so many people would be in a much better place if it was like, not yet, but eventually.

Sure.

You know, as opposed to like your evil and you need to violently suppress this.

Oh, don't think about that again.

Exactly.

That's where the relationship with shame comes around and again.

Very much so.

And suppression, right?

Like shame and suppression go so deeply hand in hand.

And so much of it's about control in such a, like, not good way.

This is how I'm chasing my horny joy now.

I'm horny online.

Like, I'm going to talk about it.

I'm going to keep talking about the sex that I have, the sex that other people have, the sex that I want to have.

Let's talk about sex, baby.

Let's talk about you and me.

Are you embarrassed to sing on your podcast?

No.

Should we eroticize it?

Yeah, it's really funny.

People are always like, what do you tell people you do for your job?

I'm like, in a sex shop.

I'm an intimacy educator.

I work in a sex shop.

Yeah, I work in a sex shop.

Like, come at me.

You want to be weird about it?

Come at me.

I definitely, yeah, I'm the kid that doesn't get introduced.

My mom is not famous, but well known, and definitely a like.

And this is a...

This other one.

Yeah.

But I've always been like that.

I've always been the fucking weird kid.

Yeah.

When I came out as trans to my family, my mom had a really hard time adjusting, introducing me to people, because she would always be like, this is my youngest dog.

You're like, you're right, but I don't want to go into that right now.

I would be like, just say this is my youngest one.

This is my youngest kid.

This is my youngest.

People will know what you fucking mean.

And she's gotten better at that.

I always, you know, I joke, like I said, I come from a really like a very, very serious activism family, and I always joke that my mom was way more surprised that I would date men, that I would, you know, date them or date women.

She was always like, are you sure?

Really?

We were so sure.

And I'm like, I can make cute squeaks.

What do you want from me?

And again, like I said, most of those men ended up being women, but yeah, whatever.

You know how to sniff them out.

On the way, they found me.

We've always been like, you're such a faggag.

And I'm like, I don't, they just, I'm just here and they keep coming.

We're like fag mag.

Yeah, like fruit fly.

Fruit fly.

Anyway, I love my friends.

They're great.

But yeah, we find each other.

I think that was a lovely talk.

We got into a lot more than I thought we would.

And it went to some beautiful places.

Thank you.

I want everybody to know we've been trying for months to have Win on.

I'm really busy.

I'm sorry.

It's perfectly understandable.

I'm busy and a little flaky.

I'm sorry.

We're very happy to have had a chance to sit down with you and talk about these things.

Yeah, it was super fun.

I love talking about this shit.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing that.

It was a really good time.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah.

You can come by Sextus for me and listen to me babble in person.

Go buy some toys from Win as you like it.

You guys have some good books in there, too.

I love working.

Yeah, just quick plug.

I fucking love my job.

That shop is so, so cool.

The woman who owns it, Kim, is literally one of the most badass people I've ever met in my life.

And that shop has some of the most truly honestly anti-capitalist values and radical values that I've ever seen in somebody participating in capitalism.

And the book session is incredible.

And we really love our community.

And joy is really fucking important and radical.

And I think that I see a lot of people right now, you know, the world is on fire and really, really fucking gnarly and awful.

And there's really, really fucking horrible things happening that people feel really powerless about.

And I see a lot of people who are feeling shame in, basically a shame in experiencing anything but horror and anger.

And I think that, you know, as somebody who, you know, grew up brown in a gnarly fucking society, like, you have to still find joy.

You have to still be happy.

You still have to, like, find that in a world that's really gnarly, and that is a really radical thing for you to do.

So, like, it doesn't have to be us, but, like, don't feel like you're a bad person for buying a vibrator while the world's on fire.

Yeah.

Like, net joy, you know?

Like, you can't ease suffering, but you can add to it.

And instead, you can make radical choices to experience joy while not being ignorant, you know?

Absolutely.

So, that's my clip.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Win, that was really bad.

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Goodbye.