Shame & Degradation

Kink Roundtable

In this episode Ronen, Clay, & Todd get personal and talk about their kink and BDSM inclinations centered around shame and degradation. From group play and gang bangs, to piss play and shitting in front of other people, the vulnerability of exploring and conquering shame with a partner is far more intimate than anything found in the vanilla world.

Kink Roundtable – Shame & Degradation

Welcome to The Subspace Exploration Project, a personal journey into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and building community.

This is The Subspace Exploration Project.

I am Todd.

I'm Ronen.

And I'm Clay.

And so this is a more laid back talk.

We're going to talk about kink.

Yeah.

BDSM experiences that we're into, that we're interested in getting into, or that we are freaked the fuck out by.

Our thoughts.

Our thoughts on various things.

Some of these things, I'm sure we've discussed on some episodes, but I know, I think we have very many episodes actually to come to mind that we're very focused on play and sensation.

And that was Lee Harrington and Janet Hardy.

But I think it will be fun to revisit some of those ideas and talk about all the little thoughts that we have in our heads about these things.

Who wants to start?

What is the first?

The first thing that we wanted to talk about was group play or gangbang scenes.

Oh, yeah.

I've always been a fan of the idea of group play.

I think probably a gangbang porn was probably one of the first porn I ever watched.

Same.

So that has been in my sexuality since the beginning.

It's not something that I've participated in, really, yet, but I have big, big interest in group play, particularly in gangbang scenes.

I like the idea of being a pass-around bottom.

What we were talking about is how you don't think, like, I haven't done it, and it appeals to me as well.

Being used by a roomful of people, that's hot.

Yeah.

But who do you trust to be those people?

Difficult.

Yeah.

Because the idea is like, ooh, but then actually setting that up, that would take a little bit of vetting.

Believe me.

Okay, so one of my earliest kink experiences was witnessing some kind of goddess worship kind of thing.

And very early on in my early teen years, I kind of woven into that became this idea of gangbang play.

You know, like it's a kind of worship.

Like even if they're very submissive, and there's some degradation to it, there's a certain kind of honoring their experience, and they're the center of attention, even if we're playing rough and mean, you know.

So that's like always been a part of, like one of the main things that I'm into.

But it's really hard, like I've been trying for fucking 15 years or more to try to vet people to create these kinds of scenes, and it's fucking tough to find the right people that don't turn out to be complete fucking douchebags.

Yeah.

You know.

I like, it makes me want to collect so many more like kinky people, kinky friends that will just, yeah, I'll fuck, like, yeah, I'll participate in something like that.

You're a pretty good person.

Like, how come more of my friends don't want to just like participate for the effort of it and like the appreciation of the craft or whatever?

It's just a sport, guys.

Like, we're just playing soccer.

You don't have to be an international soccer player later.

You know, vetting people is really difficult for that kind of thing.

Ideally, I think I think I've had so many fantasies about like a situation where like not not the idea of it is like nobody is vetted, and that's what's hot about it.

But like, no, not knowing these people or their intentions is often part of like a hot fantasy.

But I don't want that to be the reality.

Or maybe that is the reality.

But I don't want anybody's hot intentions to be anything that I don't want.

Yeah.

That's why trusting somebody else to do the vetting for you is ideal.

If you're a bottom, I guess.

Unless, I don't know.

Yeah.

You know, if you're the top and you want to make or the dom or master or whatever, if you're the big letter and you want to make the little letter, find the people that want to fuck it, then go for it.

But it's also really cool if you just want to do that yourself, if you know your partner well enough.

I'm the kind of person I would want to leave it up to my dom or my master or whatever.

We hate a responsibility.

Oh yeah.

I don't want to do all that work.

I'm doing the work of getting fucked.

And the real drawback is that the more you care about the person, the more you have to really know.

Like if it was just like somebody you're hooking up with on one of the apps or something, you know, you'll do some preliminary checking.

You'll maybe check STIs or whatever, you know, and maybe, I don't know, maybe get a reference, you know, but you're only going to extend yourself so far in the vetting process, you know.

But, you know, if it's somebody that is a partner of yours, you know, there's this actual level of concern and protection, you know, and so it can take a while.

But I think the more people you know, the more people you get to know that are freaky and openly unapologetically freaky, you know, you're increasing your odds of being able to make something like that happen.

You can make your dreams come true.

Seriously.

Yeah, just fucking get out there and talk to people.

Go to the munches, you know.

Don't go to Dex Ranch.

Bring your pets, your subs, make them get time off of work, bring them to the munches, show them off, get to know some people, and make it happen.

Isn't that working?

Yeah, because it's going to take a while.

And you're going to talk to some people, and they're going to say yes.

And then you're going to be like, oh wait, they said that.

Oh no.

You or your sub is going to decide no, not on this one and that one.

It's going to take a while to find the right people.

Even if you're, whether or not you're letting your little letter make any decisions, usually you'll dance them around in front of their eyes and you get a sense of if they're interested or not.

I plan on making some stuff happen, and I thought I might have scored a cool place to find people, and maybe even play out some scenes at Ducks Ranch, and it turned out that wasn't the case.

That was a bummer.

But I'd be happy with a smaller scene, four or five, ten people.

I'm sorry, but were you thinking 100 people to participate in a group scene like that?

It would be impossible.

Maybe one day.

Yeah, maybe one day.

I mean, that would be fucking hot, but knowing how long holes last, I'm not going to get much further than 20, if that.

Piss play.

I've been asked to do it quite a lot, and I was just like, okay.

Most of the time, I'll just pee in front of you.

That was all they wanted.

That's cool.

It didn't turn me on or turn me off.

It wasn't either way with it, really.

But I guess because it turns them on, then it's kind of okay.

Because it's just that stubby thing.

Well, it turns them on.

There's a lot of things that my partners could be into that I am feeling neutral about.

But because they're into it, into watching me do it or whatever, or doing it to me, I'm like, yeah, for sure.

That works just fine for me, as if I was interested in it.

I do like piss play.

I do do.

I do do piss play.

I don't do do do.

That's one of the things I don't do.

Piss play doesn't really...

I don't know if I would say it turns me on, but it hits certain buttons for me, and those buttons seem to be shame and just like power exchange.

I guess a lot of things fit under the umbrella of power exchange, of course.

But because obviously, I would not say I like the taste of piss, nor do I like the taste of cum.

But I'm a big fan of playing with it.

Being made to play with it.

And being made to play with it, yeah.

I don't like the mess that it makes, but at the same time, I do, I am pleased with a mess that is made at the end of play.

Yeah, I had a scene the other day actually where I ended it in just such a goopy, like sticky, slimy mess from my head to my toes and on my back.

And it was really fun until I came out of subspace a little bit.

I just came back to my senses and I was like, okay, this is drying on me now, I'm going to have to shower.

So yeah, of course in the right context, I'm all for it, but I don't want to be wet when I don't need to be.

Or slimy.

Piss doesn't smell good afterwards.

Definitely having a space for it is a good idea.

Like I said, I've known people to put down, not tarps, but like...

Drop cloth.

Yeah, drop cloth type things, the plastic ones.

We'll just like tape that everywhere.

Might as well.

Yeah.

I squirted a lot yesterday in a position that I wasn't expecting to.

And it was also the first time I was in a position where I could watch the squirting happen.

And so I was just pissing so much, like right on the welcome mat of the front door.

And so I felt bad about it.

But, you know, we put a towel down later.

Didn't really fix the issue, but it did something.

It helped a little bit.

It might have soaked up a little bit.

Maybe.

Well, I guess I'll have to find out later.

But yeah, it's fun.

It's fun to make a mess.

Sometimes it's worrisome.

I think it's important to make a mess.

If you're not making a mess, what the fuck are you doing?

Yeah.

Fair enough.

I mean, unless it's like, even with masturbation, like just maintenance, self-maintenance, self-care, you should still kind of make a mess, you know?

I do not make a mess when I masturbate.

That is such, such routine maintenance.

That like, it's the most underwhelming shit ever.

Well, it can be.

It can definitely be.

Yeah.

But if there's even like a little bit of like celebrating yourself in it, there should be some mess, you know?

Sure.

All right, get down from your soapbox now.

Embarrass yourself to yourself.

Uh-huh.

Be human.

Shame and degradation.

Yay.

This is something that I have shame about.

I have shame about a lot of the kinks that I have.

So, like, I don't know.

I feel like I'm constantly involving shame and degradation in the play that I engage in because, like, I don't know.

I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the things that I'm into.

Or, like, admit that I am or, like, even talk about it.

So, when the play that I engage in is forcing me to name the things that I'm into and see how much I do enjoy it and, like, admit it and be teased about it, it feels healing in a sort of, like, I accept the deviant that I am because I've always felt, like, too horny, too sexually explicit.

I remember specifically a time I was watching one of the Divergent movies with my family.

I have two older sisters and my mom and dad.

And I was talking about what's his fucking name, Theo, the one who plays Four, whatever his fucking name is.

And Four and the Divergent one are, like, making out or whatever, and I was like, hot, hot, hot.

I, like, was saying something like that on, like, out loud.

And I was with my whole family, and one of my fucking sisters was like, shut up, stop being horny around dad.

And I was like, I'm gonna go die.

I'll never speak again.

I think I was so quiet, and still after that, I felt really, really bad.

Made to feel small and wrong.

Yeah, like sure, maybe it was inappropriate for the situation, but calling you out made it so much worse.

Stuck with me.

Trying something, giving something a shot because of partners like Intuit, has introduced me to some things that I've really started to love and or appreciate in some way.

The conflicting pain, finding that I love that.

I never thought I would have, I'd be into like really degrading somebody, like really working on their shame.

But like, creating a scene where really digging into something that someone has some kind of issue with, and they want to harness some kind of feeling from, you know, or push through some kind of challenge, you know, create some kind of ordeal to push through, is hot and beautiful.

And to see, to witness someone help someone overcome something that is really degrading and shameful and embarrassment, embarrassing and uncomfortable in some way, is fucking hot, you know?

Because like, if you put it in the context of like, I don't know, if any of your partners that you care about is like having a tough, hard time and you help them through that and like they get through it okay, and you like feel that proudness, that pride for them, I imagine that that can be transferred into like a sexual context to, yeah, why would you not feel proud for your partner to overcome something really difficult for them?

And to have them like willingly trust you with it is honoring.

Yeah, it's intimate, really intimate.

Trust you.

I like what you said too, though, honoring somebody.

When I went to massage therapy school, that my teacher was really, she said something about honoring people, your clients, you know, because you're kind of in control of their body for a minute there.

And so it's kind of the same thing, like, you know, a little bit, you're either letting go of control or you're taking control, whichever the case may be.

Yeah.

But like honoring someone's truth, kind of being naked in front of each other in a verbal sense.

In the things that you're embarrassed about, you have shame about, and being witnessed in that shame and treasured anyway, or, I guess, treasured still, anyways, implies.

Yeah, because it's not conditional.

I mean, you're creating conditions, but you're there alongside them because they're going through this ordeal, and you're, I mean, you may be creating, you know, whatever kind of perceived compromising moment, but really, I mean, you're, you know, you're there holding them up, even if you're, it looks like you're...

Actually have your foot on their neck on the ground.

You could literally...

It's actually good for you, trust.

You could be pinning them down, you know, foot on their neck, pissing on them.

But you're doing it with like a certain kind of love and appreciation.

With good vibes and good intentions.

Most importantly, enthusiastic consent for it, too.

How often do you get to do something like that with the people in your life?

It's really special to find someone that you can do that kind of thing with.

You don't just get to piss on anybody.

See, that kind of intimacy, like I don't see...

OK, to the vanilla people, they don't see that as intimate.

Yeah, they're like, that's gruffos.

Why would you want that?

I don't need that intimacy.

Well, unfortunately, it plagues my mind.

I have to do it.

Because what you're doing is you're getting into your partner's head, you're understanding to some extent where this need comes from.

You're creating this scenario that pretty well matches that.

You're playing a role.

You're creating these moments.

And right before it gets ugly, you're picking them up and saying, Yay, you!

Yay, you did it!

And it is really vulnerable, really intimate, because you're getting in their head, you're showing them, I fucking understand you, at least to this extent, I understand you, and I see a beauty in this, and you're going to persevere, you know.

And once you've experienced something like that, like go back and you look at, like a vanilla connection, and you're like, what?

I find it lacking there.

Like, my friendships have been more intimate than my vanilla relation, like my vanilla romantic relationships.

And the intimacy that I engage in with my sex and kink play is a whole other type of intimacy that I don't really engage with people on any level, besides the people that I go all the way there with.

You know, I saw a social experiment where they had people take a shit in front of each other.

Like, it sounds really funny, but people cried, because it was so...

because I watched them, and they were like, so I just go?

They were like, yeah, just go.

And so they totally just sat down and started pooping.

And the other person would be like, I feel like I should hug you.

I'm like, yeah, okay.

But it brought so many people together, just pooping in front of each other.

But I think it's funny, but it's also like you were talking about, it's really intimate and vulnerable.

And some people cried, legit cried.

Well, and pooping is like one of those things, it's like as far as things we can imagine that are gross and just like, like that's the top of the list, I think.

Winner, winner, winner, chicken dinner, out my asshole in the toilet.

Sorry, go on.

But it's like, everybody fucking does it, everybody deals with it.

Everybody poops.

Everybody poops.

You read the book, right?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

That's how you learn to poop.

Unless you're Catholic, then that's evil coming out the back of you.

No, that's true though.

But it's pretty easy to get over.

But yeah, there's this barrier like, and I think that's why for most people, you know, scat play is like a hard no.

See, I even hate the word scat play.

What are we doing?

Like playing in the woods with bear poop, scat tracking.

Actually, I'm sorry, this is that sounds really shame, like shaming people for a scat king.

Rock the fuck on guys, rock on.

Not me.

Yeah.

Well, and yeah, I don't think I'd want to ever go there either.

I'm okay having that as a hard no, you know, but pooping in front of somebody or...

I pooped in front of someone.

Yeah.

It was difficult.

It was within the context that...

I pooped in front of somebody.

You were going to say?

I was going to say.

It was within the context that I was doing an anal enema for the first time.

And I didn't really know what I was fucking doing, and I was like feeling weird and bad about it.

And so, my Dom and I did the enema.

I was going to say we did the enema together, but it was just me getting the enema.

And then, you know, I sat on the toilet and I shit out water and shit as well.

And that was the first time I've ever shit in front of somebody or have been given an enema.

Really new experience.

But also, yeah, I was hugged while I did that.

And that was comforting.

But I think what was more comforting and fun was sucking dick while doing, while shitting out the water because like, I don't know, it brings the sexual experience back into it.

And also, hey, congratulations for being hard while I'm shitting in front of you.

You know, that makes me feel better about it.

Like, oh, you still find this a hot experience?

Okay.

All right, I guess I don't need to be weird about it.

And it also feels like I'm also, you know, we've talked about honoring the little letter or whatever.

Just honoring, worshiping anyway.

But it just feels really honoring for to be afraid of not being prepared or good enough for anal play.

And Dom kind of taking care of that worry and being like, don't worry.

Like, I'll make sure it's fine.

If that's what I want to do, then I'm going to make sure it's all good.

Nothing for you to feel ashamed about is really cool and comforting.

It's also really fucking gross.

I'll think about it later.

But it's an experience I would do again and again.

What did we learn today, children?

I think the conclusion I've come to from everything we've talked about is mostly learning to speak your truth and get your point across and have your boundaries be really clear.

And once you do that, I think it can all be fun after that.

You know, just to make sure that everything is safe and in the container of the care that you feel for each other and however many people that might be.

I think something also important to remember is that there's always going to be someone out there that is into whatever fucking weird thing that you're into, right?

You can afford to be picky about who you choose to engage in those activities with.

You could absolutely afford to be picky about it, and you should.

Find the right people.

You will come across another one if this one doesn't seem...

There are so many things that we all are dying to do, or have done to us.

And it can be really easy to jump on the first opportunity that we get.

But you don't have to settle.

You don't ever have to settle.

There's plenty of freaks in the water, the ocean.

On your block, in your house, across from you, at your work.

We're everywhere.

Talk to them.

Be open.

Figure out what you want, what your partners want, what prospective partners might be into.

Because I think a lot more people than we think are into gangbangs and want to be part of a gangbang or some kind of group scenario.

So get to talking so we can make these things happen.

Harmonize goodbye?

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Subspace Exploration Project.

Every episode, you can join us for a plunge into kink, non-monogamy, sex education, deconstructing the gender binary, queer culture, and building healthy communities.

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