TammyJo Eckhart

BDSM Education w/ TammyJo Eckhart

This week on the Subspace Exploration Project Clay, Ronen, and Todd talk with Tammy Jo Eckhart about Kink, BDSM, and Community Education. From developing interactive face to face lessons and online classes, to community concerns and curiosities, and potentially contributing to the BDSM 101 Project, TammyJo has decades of experience as a Kink and BDSM educator.

TammyJo Eckhart’s Website: https://www.tammyjoeckhart.com/

BDSM Education w/ TammyJo Eckhart Episode Transcript

This is The Subspace Exploration Project.

Join us for a deep dive into kink, non-monogamy, mental and emotional health, gender expression, and community building.

In each episode, we're deconstructing the gender binary, celebrating queer culture, and creating a safe space for sex education, all while learning from authors, educators, mental health professionals, and folks like you and me.

This week on The Subspace Exploration Project, Clay, Ronen, and Todd talk with Tammy Jo Eckhart again, this time about kink, BDSM, and community education.

From developing interactive face-to-face lessons and online classes to community concerns and curiosities, and potentially contributing to the BDSM 101 Project, Tammy Jo has decades of experience as a kink and BDSM educator.

Let's get into it.

Lately, we've been collaborating with some local educators to develop this project.

It's kink, sexuality, gender, community, and personal wellness educational content that we want to make available online for free.

But we wanted to reach out to folks in the community, established educators, and talk to them, get some advice, and see how they've approached education of this sort over the years, discuss complications and their own personal priorities in creating and delivering this educational material.

And you're just one such person who's pretty well established in kink education, among other things.

And we thought it was important to take a moment and speak with you about what you've done for the community, with the community.

Thank you for being here.

Yeah, my slave would tell you that I have a teacher personality.

So even when he went through my formal training process, it was very much like in that teacher mindset.

Probably because, well, I was in graduate school for a very long time learning to be a history, learning to be a historian and history teacher.

And I had the privilege by the time I came to Indiana University that the department I was in was very focused on pedagogical issues.

So I took a lot of practical work in how to teach.

And then I also had a lot of opportunities to teach for many years, including a year and a half where I taught at another school at the college level.

So I kind of bring that that comes from just my way of looking at the world.

Like if I want someone to know how to do something for me, or to understand why I'm doing something, I've always been a person who models it, explains it, gives them a chance to do it, corrects it, has them do it again.

And so I think that's what he means by it.

I don't just say do this.

I like there are steps to the process that are designed to help the person understand or do something better.

Absolutely.

You have a good understanding of what somebody might need to hear or experience in order to understand in a multitude of ways why, how something is done the way it is done.

I hope so.

I also make an effort to get feedback.

Sure.

So there are many different ways that people learn.

And this really used to be really hot in pedagogy.

There are these types of learners and those types of learners, those types of learners.

That's sort of gone out of fashion now.

And instead, it's just become more individual.

It isn't that you're X type of learner, because usually we learn a multitude of ways.

And the one real constant is we learn by doing.

And the more you do something, the better you get at it.

Practice makes perfect.

Practice makes perfect, yes.

Yeah, I was going to say, jumping into Kink and BDSM specifically, I was very excited, but it was hard to find mentors in my area to really show me how things were done.

I mean, sure, there are classes available at times, but sometimes they don't necessarily sync up with what I need to learn in them at that moment.

And I can look to books and tutorials on specific things.

And what I tend to do is I'll fill my head with as much knowledge as I can.

But until I actually do it a couple of times, it doesn't sync in.

And then sometimes I have to go back and pour through the materials again to figure out what I might have missed or how to fine tune it.

But there is a lot of back and forth.

And of course, when you're partaking in these activities that tend to require one or more other human beings or pets, objects, it's really complicated.

And there's a lot of factors that just can't be summarized in a book, audio book, or sometimes even those face-to-face classes.

I mean, and even though like the project that we're going to be putting together definitely has, for at least some of the topics, it's definitely going to have a classroom kind of format for teaching some of these things.

We're also going to make sure to include folks, experienced and new folks in the community sitting around and discussing these things and demonstrating a lot of these things when they can.

And I think that's a missing component.

Now, when you do Kingkin BDSM Education and all the things that are included in that, do you find that like face-to-face, like workshop kind of classes work best or these days, is it exclusively online or what are your favorite teaching methods?

I prefer to do it face-to-face.

Almost everything's moved to online now, but there are just things you can't do.

One of which is what I teach in terms of kink generally involves intellectual matters or interpersonal matters.

Not really a person who's going to teach much about this is how you flog or this is how you spank.

I figured there are a plethora of people who can do that, but they might not have the insight or experience to teach about these other things or the training to get more in-depth to historical subjects or something.

But it's okay to teach online when it's a thing.

If I'm doing history of slavery in the Roman world, that's fine.

That can be a ritual.

It's going to be a lot of slides, me showing you evidence, me showing you texts, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But if I do the class, I have a class called Your Plan for a Successful DS or MS Relationship, that requires the people taking it to do a lot of work right there.

And if I'm not physically there, then I can't walk around the room and answer people's questions, talk about something with it one on one.

They can't turn to each other and say, hey, I'm thinking this, this, and this, what do you think?

And get someone else's feedback.

I taught that at the MSC Worldwide Conference this year, and we tried to make it work.

We had like a breakout room, and people could go into the chat to ask their questions, but it's not quite the same.

Because even if they're asking the question just at me, and I'm the only one seeing it, in a room, as quiet as you may want to talk, other people are going to hear that, which means it also helps them.

So it was just a different vibe, and I couldn't be sure who was doing the work and who wasn't.

And I am the type of teacher that I will, if I think you're being half-assed about it, I will just go sit right next to you or stand behind you and ask you if there's a problem, if you need some help.

You know, the same way if I ask a question, I will literally stand there and just stare at everyone until someone answers the question.

You know, it's...

So I prefer it one-on-one, but that can be very expensive for educators and also for organizations.

I think the time of everyone just does this because they love it is over, I'm afraid.

A lot of people just don't have the surplus income anymore to run off to every kink event they can think of.

And there are a lot of educators out there who, you know, if you look at their website, they would say, I charge $500 per class or things like that.

And I've never done that, and I've gotten to trouble a little bit with some of these people.

But all I ever ask for is for my expenses to be covered and a chance to sell my books because I have this teacher personality and because I feel like I'm giving back.

You know, we all get into the community in some way.

Yeah.

I was lucky.

I lived in New York City.

I lived in Manhattan.

So I had a lot of resources in the 90s, resources that don't even exist today.

And this is sort of my attempt to give back a little bit.

But yeah, it still needs to cover those things.

So I think the result is that more people are tending toward asking title holders to do things because they tend to generate sort of a travel account, oftentimes from the organizations, and they can put through like GoFundMe for expenses like that.

So they're kind of doing a twofer, but they're there for the event, and then they're there to teach as well, or they're doing virtual things.

So I prefer to do it face to face.

I have a question about when you're coming up with your lessons, of course, you may have an idea of like something specific that you're going to talk about, or maybe you're doing something broader.

But more specifically, well, I guess this can apply to either topic.

When I'm compiling things to tell to people, to explain to them, I'm constantly pulling in extra shit that may or may not really need to be explained.

So my question for you is how are you figuring out which piece of information you may or may not include that could be helpful for this subject that you're teaching, but you don't want to go too in-depth on it because it's a whole other can of worms and might be best saved for a different kind of lesson.

Have you ever had any times like those that have been difficult to sort out?

So the first thing is to base it on your own experience and then your knowledge.

But after that, it's really a matter of trying it, getting feedback and revising.

And when I get feedback, it's great to get feedback at the end, but I will stop numerous times when I'm teaching and say, is there anything that's confusing?

Is there anything else along this topic that you guys have a question about before we move on to the next topic?

But I really take that feedback seriously.

And so there are very few of my class notes or PowerPoints that have not been revised multiple times because of that.

So I think that really helps.

And then you can also, and this again is easier to chew when you're face to face than online when I may not be able to see anyone, especially if I have PowerPoint, then I can't see anybody.

It's just the PowerPoint and me.

And if I notice that someone's looking confused or sometimes even getting upset or they're spacing off, then I can make adjustments in that moment.

And sometimes that's hard.

I have a class that I've had a couple times for women who want to be dominant or the top in their relationships.

And there's like 13 subjects that we try to cover.

And it is really too much.

But the point of it is to just scratch the surface, to tackle these subjects so that later people go deeper in them.

And a couple years ago when I taught it, I had people in the class going, okay, I want an entire weekend where all we do are these things because this is just too much.

But the thing is, I don't have that.

I have not been yet offered that venue, and so I try to do what I can in a tiny amount of time.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a lot.

Yeah, it's almost like all the times that I've written an essay and people have given me feedback on what does and does not need to be included in there, and this is extra information, how best to explain this, and I have a question here.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

I think being able to think on your feet and trying to be flexible really helps.

This isn't teaching, but another thing I do is I'm a storyteller in role-playing sense, and let me tell you, you can plan anything you want, and you just better believe that 90% of the time your players are going to do something else.

So I learned to plan, literally plan 10%, and the rest is off the top of my head and making notes, because it's just, uh-huh, forget it.

Hey, that must really help with thinking on your feet though, if you're getting that kind of like role-playing practice in.

Yeah, seriously.

A little improv.

Our DM is constantly like, you know, I plan for some of the things that you're going to do, and I can predict a few of them, but most of the time you guys really surprised me.

Yeah, and I've actually gamified when I've taught classes, not so much in Inks classes, but in history classes.

Because one of the biggest problems you have teaching history is people having empathy for the past and for the people of the past.

There's a tendency to say, the way things are right now in my world is the way they've always been.

And any other way is wrong, wrong.

So you can use role playing to put people into the mindset of those people in the past and go, huh, well, and I can be snarky as a teacher too.

I had a Roman class once where they're like, why'd they let their public fall?

I don't understand why they're doing all this, blah, blah, blah.

For elections, I said, okay, next week we're having an election.

And my advanced undergraduate students and the graduate students who were in the class, I made them the politicians running for office.

We had the two major parties and one person who was quote, unquote, independent.

Oh, and guess what?

The whole class voted just for the two parties, split the vote and created a hostile situation.

I'm like, huh, I guess you all are as stupid as people in the past.

And they're like, well, no, no, there were reasons and there was stuff I had to consider.

And I'm like, yes.

It's almost like that's what I'm teaching you.

People in the past were real.

That's good.

So I think you're going to ask me, like, how do I come up with ideas?

Was that part of your question?

Yeah, kind of.

Like, how are you deciding, like, all right, this is what I want to start out with.

So I've been part of two university kink organizations, the first at Columbia University.

It was called Converseo Veriam.

And part of what we did is we functioned as sort of a support group for people who were part of the university.

And because most of us were undergraduates or graduate students, and there were some staff members there too, we would, you know, find out what people were interested in, and we would invite outside speakers to come and talk to us.

And then other times we would just, like, share our experiences and talk about things together.

But I noticed over the years, people had repeating questions, and a lot of them were really basic.

And so we almost always talked about etiquette, like what is appropriate scene etiquette.

So I developed a class about that.

Also, if you start having, if you start to be seen as one of the people who has more experiences, when people come to you and ask you questions, kind of catalog that.

Okay, I'm getting asked these questions.

I've been asked this question, you know, three times.

I've been asked this question 20 times, you know.

Gee, I wonder which one probably is more important to people.

And so I create, you know, this list.

And it's very similar to how I write fiction, is I just keep a list and the list never goes away.

But I'm looking at right now, I have a list of 34 kink education classes that I've developed to some degree.

And some of them are like, there's A, B, a couple of them even a C version, dependent on, you know, the experiences I had with groups.

And I just, I kind of keep that list and really do based on what I hear repeatedly that people want and the questions they had.

A couple of them on there are reactions I've had to things that I've heard people say repeatedly that I know are not factually correct.

And then other ones where, you know, people just will make statements about how easy it is to be out.

For example, I have a class talking about what you should consider if you want to come out as kinky.

And I've heard people both say, oh, it's just easy to be out.

And also people say, well, you can never be out because, you know, like your life will be over and blah, blah, blah.

And the reality is somewhere in the middle, right?

As it often is when people talk in extremes.

And it depends on the person too, right?

And the communities you're in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I keep this sort of running tally.

And when I'm approached by a group or an organization, and I see them as slightly different, I see a group as less formalized, and an organization will have things like actual bank account and elected officers and things like that.

When I'm approached, I'll usually give them this list, and then they're completely overwhelmed.

So I try to say, well, what are you interested in?

What have you seen me do at other places to get that conversation going?

Because getting a list of 34 things with descriptions is overwhelming.

Choices, decisions.

Yeah.

I was also thinking, when you mentioned that you were getting a lot of questions about scene etiquette, I imagine you get a lot of repeating questions about things that are not easily taught or perhaps not even universally agreed upon.

Because it might depend on the situation, what kind of scene etiquette you might abide by.

And there are so many things that you can't just learn off of reading something on the internet.

You need to go and experience and see it for yourself.

And that can be really difficult, inaccessible, daunting, can take many times.

So I imagine there's a thirst from people to know these things before having to put themselves through the experience of figuring it out.

You know?

Yeah.

And there's also the way you word it.

Talking about things that people won't agree with.

We like to toss around jargon a lot.

And we like to say, well, there's the way that leather people do things.

And there's the way that MS people do things.

But really, when I stop and I think about it, at the core of all this is, this is how decent people do things.

Decent people don't touch other people's stuff without permission.

Whether it's a shoe or another person or themselves.

You know, decent people don't go up and scream at another person.

You know, decent people don't assume that you're going to have sex with them within five minutes of meeting them.

It's not really so different from subgroup to subgroup within the culture.

And if it is, that's usually form related within that group.

So like, and so in terms of general kink, I think it really is just comes down to be a decent human being.

And practice communication.

Otherwise, as you said, it varies a great deal.

So I really think that, go ahead.

I was gonna say, I think people also need to hear that, that like, there's a basis there and it maybe it seems daunting and maybe other people have slightly different rules, but it comes down to you need to have this good foundation of how to be a decent person.

And the rest of that, you accept that it might be slightly different depending on which community you're interacting with.

And have the tools to be able to ask about it, communicate, you know, figure that out and abide by whatever expectations that this community has.

So simply to know that there's a basis and things might change is a really important piece of information that is not always accessible.

Yeah.

And when you, you know, when you want to join a group or you want to go to play party, whether it's private or public, I guess there aren't that many public play parties anymore.

I was taught in the 90s that you contact the host and you ask them, are there rules or guidelines that I need to be aware of before I come?

You know, and that was the same for like going to a munch.

A lot of the local educators that we're working with, they do classes on mechanics of certain kinds of play.

And then, of course, like you, they do a lot of stuff that has to do with interpersonal connection, negotiation, and the foundation of like what you were just talking about, being a decent person is a full understanding of what consent is and the skills to negotiate and the expectation of constant renegotiation, whether it's throughout a scene.

You got to check in with someone in a kink scene, in a dynamic.

Hopefully, you're checking in every couple of days, at the very least, to make sure everything is on track and there's no hiccups.

But yeah, consent and communication and understanding these things and developing skill sets around them can take actually quite a while because our society at large doesn't really respect these.

Consent, for one, or that kind of communication between people, that kind of vulnerability required to have these very in-depth negotiations about the activities that we partake in.

Yeah, yeah.

And whenever we start to make inroads, I feel like in the greater culture in which we exist, there is a backlash.

Like, you know, just within the past decade, there was more discussion about what is consent and more states moving on to change their legal codes to reflect, okay, this is what consent means.

And now we're getting the other pushback, like, you know, oh, well, this isn't people's private business, but we want to be in your other private business.

You know, I think for too long we had this shorthand that there were certain gender roles that you were shoved into without your consent and that those gender roles had certain things you did, therefore you didn't need to talk about anything because everybody knew what was going to happen.

And I think a lot of people were very unhappy with that.

But it's, I think a lot of people have a fantasy about BDSM.

And I will take this, we were talking a little bit about my fiction.

I'll take you to something I've had some of my readers say to me.

They have said to me, I love your science fiction, your fantasy, your historical fiction, even your horror.

I don't like your contemporary stuff because you're always talking about consent.

If I wanted consent, I wouldn't be reading fiction.

And, you know, I made a decision years and years ago that here are the genres where consent might be unrealistic, might not make any sense.

But if I'm writing about stuff now that's happening now, then I feel like I have a duty to include a scene there where either they're negotiating or at some point where there's feedback that it's clear they're getting consent.

And the problem is it's not always the creator who has that problem.

It can be the people who are your fan base.

I have a Patreon page and I have subscribers.

Patreon, at the beginning of this year, revised their guidelines because of MasterCard.

That's a whole other issue.

But it really scared and upset a lot of the visual creators because one of their guidelines is they wanted things to be consensual.

They didn't want to promote things that were like promoting rape or incense or violence of any type.

And a lot of people, that's what they want out of their fiction.

They want to see the person who seems to be writhing in ecstasy, fear, which is it?

Well, if you've seen someone orgasm, it can be a little confusing just from what they look like.

And so a lot of those artists have left or they've turned their Patreon into just a go check out my work here.

And as a writer, we have more leeway because their example of what was allowed was Game of Thrones.

And it's like, okay, there's stuff in Games of Thrones that I would not write for real.

My new story I'm starting for my patrons is going to be about vampires.

And so we're going to see how correct they were about what they allow in your writing because my vampires don't sparkle and they're not angsty.

So, you know, so a test.

But I think that's the problem is what we might want as educators and what we probably should want in our real lives, even if we think we don't is consent, is negotiation, is experience, is practice, is forgiveness, is flexibility.

But a lot of people still have this fantasy.

Yeah.

You know, I'm sure you've run across it.

The person who claims that they are a slave and they are in a cage 24-7, 365 days a year, they can't do anything unless their master lets them, but somehow magically, they're online.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Telling you all these things.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, those fantasies can be pretty consuming.

Actually, something we're coming up against in putting this project together is certain website hosting platforms and video hosting platforms and subscription services, their terms of service don't allow what we want to do because we're not just going to do the classroom stuff.

We're going to do also demonstrations, lessons on kink activity, kink mechanics, and sexual wellness, how to perform certain sex acts.

And the only way to really fund this project is to do a subscriber kind of set up where, because we don't want any of the educational materials to be behind a paywall.

What we're going to do is the folks that contribute to this, or at least some of them, are going to film scenes, full scenes, including negotiations and aftercare.

And everybody, tops and bottoms, anybody involved in the scene, are going to do behind the scenes narration of what occurred during these activities.

That way, if it does feature CNC or something, there's no doubt of what the consent level was throughout and where adjustments were made based on whatever occurred.

And that the checking in of consent and everything is happening consistently.

It doesn't just like, okay, I have your permission, I'm going to do whatever I want now.

Yes, and I'm checking in with you the entire time.

Yeah.

Sorry, go ahead.

And I think something that's very important to show is the level of vulnerability that people share in these scenes in reflecting on their experiences of those scenes.

And that's not something that you see in a lot of the educational materials out there.

But yeah, things like Patreon, web hosting services, video hosting services, we're going to have to do all of that stuff on our own and use configurations that are usually reserved for porn sites.

Because some of the stuff is going to be porn level, not safe for work, which is fine.

I mean, some of us are very excited to take part in that and to share that, because that's our kink.

But it's all with purpose.

And like I said, it shows a certain level of vulnerability that we're very excited to share, that you're not going to see on those sites.

Yeah, and even straight up porn anymore will often have an introductory scene where everyone who's going to be in it has a conversation.

And then at the end, they say like, well, how did you like that?

Well, that was good.

I really liked that.

So they've kind of thought of this too, is like, how can we protect ourselves?

Exactly.

But usually it is a whatever goes in the middle.

They're not doing like the check-ins and stuff because they're presenting the fantasy, not the education of how it is.

Right.

We're going to have to close out here pretty soon.

But we're putting this together.

We're collaborating with a lot of different people.

Once this is all pieced together, more substantially, we're also going to be talking to Lee Harrington and some other Bay Area educators to cover as much ground as we can for the basics and a lot of the educational or a lot of the topics that a lot of people perceive as starting points where they're actually not.

They're jumping in the deep end and they don't realize it with some of this stuff like breath play or a lot of different things.

But we wanted to talk about once this is all pieced together and we got everything rolling, we would love to have you contribute and what would be needed to be able to facilitate that?

A way that I could promote my Patreon page and the books would be good.

Working with my schedule as you did to arrange this is good.

All of that is very helpful and makes it more likely for me to do something.

Because I do use my real name because I am out.

I would also want to know that you have thought about how do you protect the content that you create.

So just get stolen and reposted other places would also be a good thing.

Absolutely.

And also, I don't know how many of your other educators you are talking to have this experience, but I have actually taught to non-Kink people about what kink is and all that.

So I have a few years' experience in that as well.

Because they are the majority of the people around us, and what is it that we want them to?

They do have power over us.

Actually, something I had talked to Naughty Productions about a couple of months back, and they are super busy.

They are on the road all the time doing a lot of Shabari and peripheral education.

But something we discussed was developing a class that was how to talk to your kids about kink and how do you talk to your parents about kink?

Talk to people that are either just getting into it or have wild misconceptions about it.

And smooth out communications between these communities, starting with family.

Like, because not that long ago, I ended up having to have conversations about kink with more than one of my kids, because they were participating in it.

And I was concerned where they were getting their information from, you know, because there's a lot of incorrect, incomplete information out there on TikTok and other places that can be very dangerous.

And don't at all cover what's going on inside your head or your partner's head, how to negotiate, what consent means, things like that, you know.

I'm very curious.

I'd love to discuss those classes more with you for sure, because, yeah, we're surrounded by people that either aren't kinky or they're in denial of what, you know, that they are participating in kinky activities, and they pass judgment on folks that are more openly kinky.

Yeah, and it goes beyond, you know, just like people you might assume, like, you know, your family, but police department, healthcare professionals in your area.

One of the things I did for conversio virium at Columbia University is we spent a whole year working with health services on campus to educate them about kink and how they could ask people questions, because there had been a study that had come out in the mid-90s saying that people who were kinky or into alternative sexuality were far less likely to go see their doctor until there was an emergency situation.

And it's like, well, no, that's not right.

It can literally be life and death.

So what do you have to ask?

Because on the other hand, health care experts were just being told, if you see a bruise, you need to say, well, here's some information about domestic violence.

If you see a bruise instead, we suggested they say, so I see you have a bruise.

Was that, what were you doing?

Just kind of make it light and open.

They can say things like, oh, I was having fun, or I went hiking, you know, or my partner and I like things a little rough.

You know, but if you seem open to it, then your patient will be more open to it.

I definitely want to talk further about this.

We understand that you've got a polycule to support, and we want to, when we invite you in to collaborate on this, we want to make sure that we're doing as much as we can to help you support that polycule.

But we're very excited to discuss this further.

And I'll send you some basic information on what we've got going here in about a week or two after we've touched bases with everybody.

But it was great having you on, Tammy Jo.

It was a joy.

And when you get done listening to that book, you can review it.

That's the number one thing that people do other than buy my books is review the books.

Because the analytics, that's what pushes the books in front of other people's eyes.

Well, we'll do.

I just like to remember, like to remember that wisdom is knowledge and practical application.

And knowledge comes from experience.

And we're grateful for your experience and your knowledge and your wisdom.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

Do you have personal stories and observations you would like to share about kink, BDSM, non-monogamy, and where neurodivergence, mental health, gender expression, community and politics all intersect?

Maybe you have a request for a topic or a guest.

We welcome people in these communities to reach out to let us know how we're doing, to share their stories and interests, and help us to shape how we contribute to healthy, informative conversations on sex, kink, non-monogamy, and queer culture.

We would love for our fellow kinksters, ENM, and queer people to ask questions, make content requests, and share your stories.

You can remain anonymous or, if you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, shoot us an email and let us know a little bit about you.

To get in touch with us, go to subspaceexploration.com/contact.

Please comment, like, share, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Acast, and RSS feed.